Could Liverpool see a new underground HS2 station?

[emoaconr]

Exactly. The pressure to provide fast services to Warrington on the CLC is greatly reduced.

My question would be: Is there any point in providing a 1tph semifast service on the full CLC to keep connections like Widnes to Manchester and Urmston to Liverpool?

Probably lots more cost for just a few extra cars so not worth it perhaps. The need for such a thing may also be reduced by the potential Widnes South station on NPR. What do others think?

I agree that with the revised 'NPR', the most sensible solution is to extend Merseyrail to Warrington Ctl, meeting with Metrolink for services then into Manchester. The whole existence of the new NPR route might negate the need for direct Liverpool-Manchester services via CLC altogether. Some of the stops on the Manchester end of CLC are infrequently served, and the service of course has to negate the whole Castlefield corridor/Oxford Road/platforms 13&14 mess. Chat Moss services at least can access Victoria.

I think Merseyrail meeting Metrolink at Warrington Central seems the only sensible option to improve the local services to all stops on the line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Should HS2 terminate(or rather call) in Liverpool at Underground platforms ? - Yes if the tunnels then extend under the Mersey and the Dee Estuaries and connect with the North Wales mainline.

Has there ever been a formal costing made in past times over such a stated project that passes under the two estuaries stated above.

The last tunnel under an estuarine river on this west coastal area was the one that takes the A55 under the river at Conwy and that was not a cheap project.

 

[MattRat]

Should HS2 terminate(or rather call) in Liverpool at Underground platforms ? - Yes if the tunnels then extend under the Mersey and the Dee Estuaries and connect with the North Wales mainline. A Wirral Park and Ride would be the cherry on the sundae. Shame to waste a good TBM on a short tunnel.

Why build a new tunnel when the Edgehill Hill tunnels exist?

 

[urbophile]

From the mainline to Merseyrail via the Edgehill tunnels? Which as far as I'm aware would run the trains into Central, which is at capacity, and would require a remodel.

It does anyway. More from the passenger point of view; the platforms can be dangerously overcrowded even in these covidious times. But trains running through from say St Helens to Ormskirk wouldn't need much more track infrastructure.They've been talking about it long enough: they should just get on with it.

MattRat also said [I don't know how to formate additional quotes]: <<I've honestly thought for a while what a shame it is Moorfields is so underused, as it's a much nicer and more open station than Central>>

Underground it is more pleasant and efficient, yes. Street level (or rather the current up in the air level) is a disaster. So that would need total reconstruction. You'd also need to do something about connectivity with the existing Lime Street, which on this scenario would doubtless still be dealing with semi-fast and local services to many destinations. The one-directional Wirral loop would not do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I mentioned in another thread, Liverpool Central is unusual in that if you add up to 8tph of south facing services joined to the Ormskirk and Kirkby service, you create paths, not lose them, because the reversals are eliminated. The Northern Line would really do best with 3 south/east destinations to match its 3 north/west ones.

But the number of people on the platform would become dangerous, so it would have to be remodelled in some way, ideally two islands, though changing to side platforms (a bit like St Pancras Low Level which deals with far larger passenger numbers) and adding platform edge doors would solve the safety issue in itself with a bit less digging.

As for Moorfields, it is underused simply because it is not where people want to go, not because there is anything actually wrong with it as such.

 

[MattRat]

As for Moorfields, it is underused simply because it is not where people want to go, not because there is anything actually wrong with it as such.

Doesn't this make it perfect for HS2 trains, as they wouldn't stop at any other Liverpool station, so if you are coming to Liverpool, you have to get off at Moorfields.

 

[HSTEd]

Doesn't this make it perfect for HS2 trains, as they wouldn't stop at any other Liverpool station, so if you are coming to Liverpool, you have to get off at Moorfields.

Wouldn't that argument hold just as well for the likes of Hunt's Cross or similar and then we can avoid all the extra spending to get into the centre?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't this make it perfect for HS2 trains, as they wouldn't stop at any other Liverpool station, so if you are coming to Liverpool, you have to get off at Moorfields.

No. A new station for HS2/NPR is a gross waste of money in Liverpool. It would only be built for reasons of pride and would have considerable disadvantages in terms of quality of interchange. It would be better to spend money on connecting Lime St local services to the 8 tph of turnbacks at Liverpool Central Low Level and improving that, thus freeing up lots of capacity for these services to be accommodated in the Lime St trainshed.

Obvious ones to do first are the Wigan and Warrington BQ turnbacks (ideally increasing the former to 4tph, and possibly the latter post NPR), plus perhaps South Parkway via Mossley Hill, and obviously extending Hunts X to Warrington C post NPR.

 

[Chester1]

No. A new station for HS2/NPR is a gross waste of money in Liverpool. It would only be built for reasons of pride and would have considerable disadvantages in terms of quality of interchange. It would be better to spend money on connecting Lime St local services to the 8 tph of turnbacks at Liverpool Central Low Level and improving that, thus freeing up lots of capacity for these services to be accommodated in the Lime St trainshed.

Obvious ones to do first are the Wigan and Warrington BQ turnbacks (ideally increasing the former to 4tph, and possibly the latter post NPR), plus perhaps South Parkway via Mossley Hill, and obviously extending Hunts X to Warrington C post NPR.

Warrington Central would be the obvious Merseyrail extension to do first because it will be significantly cheaper. If it is not sufficient then connecting "city line" serviced to Merseyrail via a short tunnel would be much cheaper than a HS tunnel and a HS station. That is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[MattRat]

No. A new station for HS2/NPR is a gross waste of money in Liverpool. It would only be built for reasons of pride and would have considerable disadvantages in terms of quality of interchange. It would be better to spend money on connecting Lime St local services to the 8 tph of turnbacks at Liverpool Central Low Level and improving that, thus freeing up lots of capacity for these services to be accommodated in the Lime St trainshed.

It wouldn't be that expensive if it takes advantage of the Edgehill tunnels, and Moorfields would only need new HS2 tracks, nothing else, as it's got the space to handle the passenger numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wouldn't be that expensive if it takes advantage of the Edgehill tunnels, and Moorfields would only need new HS2 tracks, nothing else, as it's got the space to handle the passenger numbers.

The Edge Hill tunnels would be better used to direct City Line services into Central.

HS2 should go into Lime St.

 

[Class83]

Of course it isn’t.

Building an underground box straight and level long enough to accommodate 400m trains and wide enough for, say, 4 platforms, below sea level, certainly is though. Doable, but very, very expensive.

Lime Street isn't below sea level, current platform level will be ~25m above sea level. So even an underground station in the area would be well above sea level.

Berlin isn't below sea level. And it also had a huge brownfield site to work with (effectively undeveloped land due to where the Berlin Wall used to be)

There are a few good options next door to Lime Street, part of the old Post Office sorting office is still disused/a surface car park, behind the Adelphi Hotel. Alternatively there is the Mount Pleasant car park and former '051 nightclub' which is living on borrowed time. So while you couldn't find a 400m long gapsite, there are a couple of nice big sites to dig down from to meet a TBM coming in from Childwall.

--

Do I think this will happen, no, but if there's money for a 10 mile tunnel in the Chilterns, there should be money for this. What would be more realistic is dedicating the southern 2 lines of the Edge Hill Tunnel to HS2/NPR with 4 receiving platforms to avoid the traffic jam that often forms in there. Then junctions at Wavertree, South Parkway and Ditton realigned to have these lines optimally aligned priority fasts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lime Street isn't below sea level, current platform level will be ~25m above sea level. So even an underground station in the area would be well above sea level.

I stand corrected, I understood it was lower than this. Nevertheless a box of that size in that location will have issues with the water table.

Do I think this will happen, no, but if there's money for a 10 mile tunnel in the Chilterns, there should be money for this.

Not necessarily. The tunnel through the Chilterns is on the core route which will have by far the most trains per hour and the most passengers of any part of HS2. A new line into Liverpool would not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting City Line services into Central thus freeing up capacity in Lime St would have a big benefit. This would just be a vanity project. Even if they cost the same I'd pick the Merseyrail project.

 

[MattRat]

There are a few good options next door to Lime Street, part of the old Post Office sorting office is still disused/a surface car park, behind the Adelphi Hotel. Alternatively there is the Mount Pleasant car park and former '051 nightclub' which is living on borrowed time. So while you couldn't find a 400m long gapsite, there are a couple of nice big sites to dig down from to meet a TBM coming in from Childwall.

Why couldn't the space be used for normal trains? That would free up current platforms for HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

Putting City Line services into Central thus freeing up capacity in Lime St would have a big benefit. This would just be a vanity project. Even if they cost the same I'd pick the Merseyrail project.

If Merseyrail platforms were even just marginally longer I would be proposing that NPR just connect straight into the Merseyrail system!

Like Class 395s in reverse.

But I am odd like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Merseyrail platforms were even just marginally longer I would be proposing that NPR just connect straight into the Merseyrail system!

Like Class 395s in reverse.

But I am odd like that.

I'd say don't overcomplicate Merseyrail - its strength is in its simplicity. One type of rolling stock, a very-close-to-perfect-clockface timetable, all trains all stations (except Capenhurst, but I'd expect that to change with the coming of the 777s, it's only because the Chester diagrams are really tight).

 

[Bevan Price]

The Edge Hill tunnels would be better used to direct City Line services into Central.

HS2 should go into Lime St.

As I keep commenting, diverting Huyton / St. Helens services away from Lime Street would be a very bad idea, although some here seem a bit obsessed with it. The main problem being that it would lose the valuable connectivity between local & long distance services at Lime St. Some young, fit people may claim it is only a short walk between Central & Lime Street -- but it is far enough to get soaked when it rains, and unwelcome for older or less healthy people carrying luggage.

There is near zero desire for through travel between, say, St. Helens & Ormskirk via Liverpool. (Indeed, the direct route cannot even support a commercial bus service; there is just a "supported" daytime-only bus about every 2 hours - and zero buses between St. Helens & Southport)

The trouble with Lime Street is that it will probably never be feasible to accommodate full length 400m. HS2 trains within the existing station area. If you use 200m. portions, splitting & joining at Crewe, it is likely to add several minutes to journey times, and have insufficient seating (standard class) per hour for Liverpool. Extending platforms across Lime St. (the road) is not feasible; extending the other way (into the cutting) would require excavation of large amounts of rock, and probably need all routes into Lime St. to be closed for several years on safety grounds.

 

[MattRat]

The trouble with Lime Street is that it will probably never be feasible to accommodate full length 400m. HS2 trains within the existing station area. If you use 200m. portions, splitting & joining at Crewe, it is likely to add several minutes to journey times, and have insufficient seating (standard class) per hour for Liverpool. Extending platforms across Lime St. (the road) is not feasible; extending the other way (into the cutting) would require excavation of large amounts of rock, and probably need all routes into Lime St. to be closed for several years on safety grounds.

I think you stumbled upon something else by accident. Liverpool needs the 400m trains, but the Government seems to want to put in zero effort to pay for anything to accommodate them. So, is there any way accomadate 400m HS2 trains that fits the Governments budget for Liverpool?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lime Street isn't below sea level, current platform level will be ~25m above sea level. So even an underground station in the area would be well above sea level.

It is at times like this in a discussion that I am reminded of what is said about rising sea levels still to come.

 

[HSTEd]

As I keep commenting, diverting Huyton / St. Helens services away from Lime Street would be a very bad idea, although some here seem a bit obsessed with it. The main problem being that it would lose the valuable connectivity between local & long distance services at Lime St. Some young, fit people may claim it is only a short walk between Central & Lime Street -- but it is far enough to get soaked when it rains, and unwelcome for older or less healthy people carrying luggage.

It is not really necessary to go outside to get between the Northern Line and Lime Street though?

You could change at Central or Moorfields depending on which way you are going.

It's certainly not worth the trouble of spending many many billions on a massive new station complex at Lime Street rather than just putting more local trains into Merseyrail.

Perhaps if we were doing it again we'd prefer the Northern Line to go through Lime Street instead of the old Central site, but we are where we are now.

What proportion of people travelling on local trains into Lime Street today are doing it to connect to long distance trains, that in most cases have them doubling back?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you stumbled upon something else by accident. Liverpool needs the 400m trains, but the Government seems to want to put in zero effort to pay for anything to accommodate them. So, is there any way accomadate 400m HS2 trains that fits the Governments budget for Liverpool?

Liverpool does not need 400m trains. It has one 264m train per hour at the moment, sometimes 216m, and will soon have a 182m second train when the 80x arrive. This, because of its geography, is more than it is ever likely to need. On occasions when it is an issue, they could easily price the non time sensitive passengers into travelling via Manchester/Warrington, or a classic line budget service be added by extending the Crewe LNR, but I can't see that being often.

Also, giving Liverpool 400m trains would mean somewhere else misses out. The other portions are the Macclesfield local and the Lancaster - should those stations receive no service at all just so Liverpool can have capacity it does not need?

There is near zero desire for through travel between, say, St. Helens & Ormskirk via Liverpool. (Indeed, the direct route cannot even support a commercial bus service; there is just a "supported" daytime-only bus about every 2 hours - and zero buses between St. Helens & Southport)

It is not really to do with connections, but rather to do with offering two central Liverpool stations instead of one, and Merseyrail style frequencies which can't be accommodated at Lime St, in exchange for a less convenient change for the small number of people who actually are changing and aren't going via Wigan (which is a better way to reach most places you would change at Lime St for, at least for stations from St Helens C onwards). Plus as someone else said you can use the Loop if you wish (if you use the lifts at both ends then slightly quicker than walking).

 

[Halifaxlad]

I was searching through Google earlier about the Golborne Spur and came across this:

Liverpool and Network North/Northern Powerhouse Rail

Seen this in yesterday's Times: " On Wednesday High Speed Two,a government backed company of engineers and experts who have drawn up the proposals, will give their report to Lord Adonis. Its preferred option is for a line runnning from west london,stopping at Heathrow airport before heading...

www.skyscrapercity.com

Although I would connect it to the existing line to Wigan which would cut it down by about a third!

400m service to Manchester ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm all for longer trains, and take the view that the 5-car TPEs are too short. But there will never be a need for 400m trains between Liverpool and Manchester. 240m perhaps (classic 12-car South East EMU), but 400m would be pointless.

I'm not totally convinced 400m trains are needed 3 times an hour from London to Manchester either, and suspect some will end up running as single 200m units, with only peak times being strengthened to full length. Very rarely are London to Manchester trains full at the moment (or even pre COVID) except the Friday evening issue which has been fixed by removing restrictions.

 

[Class83]

Not necessarily. The tunnel through the Chilterns is on the core route which will have by far the most trains per hour and the most passengers of any part of HS2. A new line into Liverpool would not.

Not building the Chiltern tunnel would have had no impact on the speed or capacity of the line. It would have saved a lot of money to allow increased speed and capacity on dedicated high speed line elsewhere such as Liverpool and Yorkshire.

 

[6Gman]

As for Moorfields, it is underused simply because it is not where people want to go, not because there is anything actually wrong with it as such.

It also suffers because getting from the street to the platform (and vice versa) is a real trek. Of course any HS2 station might address that but there remains the point you make that it's not well sited.

 

[MattRat]

It also suffers because getting from the street to the platform (and vice versa) is a real trek. Of course any HS2 station might address that but there remains the point you make that it's not well sited.

Plenty of good transport options from it though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not building the Chiltern tunnel would have had no impact on the speed or capacity of the line. It would have saved a lot of money to allow increased speed and capacity on dedicated high speed line elsewhere such as Liverpool and Yorkshire.

No way would HS2 ever have gone ahead without it. The environmental lobby is too strong.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was searching through Google earlier about the Golborne Spur and came across this:

View attachment 105994

Liverpool and Network North/Northern Powerhouse Rail

Seen this in yesterday's Times: " On Wednesday High Speed Two,a government backed company of engineers and experts who have drawn up the proposals, will give their report to Lord Adonis. Its preferred option is for a line runnning from west london,stopping at Heathrow airport before heading...

www.skyscrapercity.com

Although I would connect it to the existing line to Wigan which would cut it down by about a third!

400m service to Manchester ?

That’s just crayons (from 6 years ago).

It would have saved a lot of money to allow increased speed and capacity on dedicated high speed line elsewhere such as Liverpool and Yorkshire.

Would it? How much would it have saved?

 

[MattRat]

No way would HS2 ever have gone ahead without it. The environmental lobby is too strong.

It could have started in the North. No crazy 'environmentalists' (in name only) here as far as I'm aware. If there were, I feel like we'd get a lot of tunnels too.