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Could Llandudno-Chester Be Half-Hourly, with more Stops?

Jack Hay

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18 Aug 2016
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It's not just industry regulation but legal responsibilities as well. People who could be put on trial for offences such as manslaughter tend to be very cautious before signing off on something with known risks.
This debate about benefit vs accident risk is much wider than foot crossings on the railway (and indeed I would argue that Network Rail is taking a very narrow view of it, hence my use of the word 'perfectionist', and perfection is generally unachievable, so NR are limiting the use of the railway because it can't be perfect). We are concerned, naturally, about the number of 'Elsenhams'. Let's just broaden this a little. What about the risk to pedestrians of trams on city streets? This exists and is calculable, and indeed there has been the occasional pedestrian death on city streets ever since the first modern city tram, Manchester Metrolink, was introduced. If it is right to be perfectionist about this, then none of the city trams should have been allowed. but they were, and are generally a success. The trams demonstrate that it is right to take measured risks in the pursuit of an overall gain to the public.

Incidentally, a friend of mine worked for GEC-Alstom on the development of the original control systems for Metrolink. He left when he realised that, statistically, there was bound to be the occasional death caused by someone being hit by a tram, and he feared that he or his colleagues would be held responsible and/or prosecuted. The occasional death did, sadly, happen, as predicted. There were no prosecutions. It was a foreseen risk and it was being managed. Judgement and calculation and common sense are called for. Not perfectionism.
 
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Krokodil

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If it's close by could they not both be closed and one footbridge built midway between them?
Who is going to pay for it though?

One of the ironies for safety about those crossings has to be that they are only about half a mile from Abergele and Pensarn station, so the trains shouldn't be going too fast there... except that that is the only station between Flint and Llandudno Junction that the fast trains don't stop at! :D
One particularly nasty fatality I remember involved a stopping train. That far out the driver would barely even have started to touch the brakes.

A crossing next to a caravan park means kids using them on their own, and mucking about.
So your tragedies look even worse in the media, and even more likely to result in some scary times for anyone who signed it off as safe.
In the case I'm thinking of, it was the grandmother of the child who got hit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48933630

Following that particular fatality a TSR of 50mph was imposed, pending the installation of miniature warning lights at both crossings. The MWLs have improved things but there's still a lot of misuse.

A foot crossing near Deganwy has also seen fatalities and has been closed for a few years, though local politicians keep fighting that decision. Despite being closed it recently had another fatality.
 

Trainbike46

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You don't need a footbridge to solve the overcrowding, you need longer trains.
How many 197s are not yet in service? hopefully when they're all in service there will be enough trains to solve overcrowding

If not, maybe TfW should be looking at ordering more 231s/756s (though I think they should be bimode/trimode out of the box, unlikely the 231s!)
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Who is going to pay for it though?


One particularly nasty fatality I remember involved a stopping train. That far out the driver would barely even have started to touch the brakes.


In the case I'm thinking of, it was the grandmother of the child who got hit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48933630

Following that particular fatality a TSR of 50mph was imposed, pending the installation of miniature warning lights at both crossings. The MWLs have improved things but there's still a lot of misuse.

A foot crossing near Deganwy has also seen fatalities and has been closed for a few years, though local politicians keep fighting that decision. Despite being closed it recently had another fatality.
The foot crossing at Deganwy isn't closed permanently and network rail have to keep getting permission to close it, I think the current closure runs out in June if I recall correctly when if they wish to continue they will have to apply again.

With regard to fatalities at Deganwy I don't recall hearing about anything about them? There was a couple of near misses which brought about the closure I thought? Do you have any info on the dates etc of the possible fatalities as someone local to that area I have somehow missed them?
 

185

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Given the spate of incidents they certainly should be closed and a link path built (on the land side of the tracks) between the Ty Gwyn & Lyons parks, still giving them the option to walk to the two existing bridges, east and west of those sites. If the businesses wish to chip in to part-fund a footbridge in the middle of the two crossings, Network Rail could try financially meet them in the middle.
 

Krokodil

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How many 197s are not yet in service? hopefully when they're all in service there will be enough trains to solve overcrowding
Not sure on the numbers. I did however read in Modern Railways that availability isn't as good as they were hoping. The Cambrian sub-fleet is the main gap, plus a few three car sets. Then of course there are two sets that have been poached to cover for 230s - in theory the 230s are supposed to be back in May but we shall see.

With regard to fatalities at Deganwy I don't recall hearing about anything about them? There was a couple of near misses which brought about the closure I thought? Do you have any info on the dates etc of the possible fatalities as someone local to that area I have somehow missed them?
There was a fatality at the beginning of March. There was definitely a fatality before the closure too, but I'm not sure of the date.
 

Doctor Fegg

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If there are any station reopenings it'll be Holywell Junction. Nothing else really has a case, though the fact that the Amwlch line is still intact (save for a bashed bridge, a severed junction and a considerable number of rotten sleepers) means that it will continue to attract reopening calls.
The campaign to convert the Amlwch line into a cycle/pedestrian route appears to have stepped up recently, which is good news. Generally I'm pro-reopening but a rail service to Amlwch really isn't viable in any foreseeable horizon.
 

6Gman

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The foot crossing at Deganwy isn't closed permanently and network rail have to keep getting permission to close it, I think the current closure runs out in June if I recall correctly when if they wish to continue they will have to apply again.

With regard to fatalities at Deganwy I don't recall hearing about anything about them? There was a couple of near misses which brought about the closure I thought? Do you have any info on the dates etc of the possible fatalities as someone local to that area I have somehow missed them?
As a former resident of Deganwy which is the crossing involved?
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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As a former resident of Deganwy which is the crossing involved?
This one I believe, but I have still yet to find any information or hear of any fatalities on this line in recent times as mentioned above.
 

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Along the bay

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The campaign to convert the Amlwch line into a cycle/pedestrian route appears to have stepped up recently, which is good news. Generally I'm pro-reopening but a rail service to Amlwch really isn't viable in any foreseeable horizon.
Could reopening to Llangefni be justified and the remainder converted for bikes. Thinking of whether the Manchester - Bangor could turn around there instead.
 

Krokodil

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This one I believe, but I have still yet to find any information or hear of any fatalities on this line in recent times as mentioned above.
There was one in the area at the beginning of March.

I don't know the date of the one before the crossing closed (before my time) but I do know the driver and I'm not going to ask him for details.
 

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