Could sleeper trains run through the Channel Tunnel?

[RichmondCommu]

That's partly the point of running the sleeper. Eight hours plus is generally too long for a daytime service, as spending all day travelling is a very hard sell compared to a flight. But run it overnight and the time factor is cancelled out somewhat, and it could be a viable proposition. It needs the environment sorted out - i.e. quiet and smooth enough to have a reasonable chance of sleep, and a sensible departure, arrival (and checkout time). And of course, would need at least a vaguely competitive fare.

The thing is though would you rather spend the night in your own home / bed or on a train. I think the vast majority of travelers to main land Europe would rather spend the night with their families rather than being alone on a train. I think some of your points are achievable but its very hard to see an operator coming up with a fare that even comes close to what the airlines can offer.

 

[edwin_m]

New build will be very expensive, which rules it out as an experiment but it could be a lot cheaper to convert some ex Eurostar carriages to pod/sleeper coaches, even if it ends up loco hauled. Or for a real budget start up, grab the old Caledonian carriages once Serco release them in a couple of years. If you can show the market is there, then that could make new build a possibility.

I personally think the old Eurostars would make an excellent base for sleepers, at their full length you could fit a huge amount of cabins/pods (250 - 400 places depending on density, more with basic reclining seat options), and therefore offer a lower average price per person for each type.
I'm guessing, but I suspect you could get 6 double cabins, 12 longitudinal 'superliner' style cabins, 18 pods or 24 reclining seats in the (admittedly shorter) articulated coaches.

The extra size of the European loading gauge doesn't make a deal of difference for daytime stock (at least until double deck is considered) but it does allow a lot more beds to be provided per coach in a sleeper. This is likely to remain so for any sort of layout whether pod, couchette or cabin. So if you're looking for a low-cost experimental startup, some continental classic stock is probably a far better starting point than Eurostar, anything else to UK gauge or single-deck TGVs. You never know, there might even be some unwanted sleepers available...

 

[bavvo]

The thing is though would you rather spend the night in your own home / bed or on a train. I think the vast majority of travelers to main land Europe would rather spend the night with their families rather than being alone on a train. I think some of your points are achievable but its very hard to see an operator coming up with a fare that even comes close to what the airlines can offer.

Having done it a few times in the past, I have to say flying in the morning for me is my least favourite option. The problem is, to be at the office for 9, I would typically need to be landing by 8, so take off by 7, check in by 6, leaving home by 5, which means getting out of bed at 4am. So it's really an evening and half a night at home, usually sleeping badly as well as I struggle to sleep when I know I have an early start. The result being I arrive at work tired and stressed.
I'm lucky in that my company will usually allow me to fly out a day early and stay in a Hotel overnight. So a sleeper would work for me providing it went to my destination with minimal fuss, and was of sufficient quality to allow a good nights sleep. That last point still being crucial of course

 

[Bald Rick]

I think you have made an excellent but overly pessimistic analysis there. I'll see if I can make a couple of points (mostly speculative of course)

Well I've worked in the sleeper team, albeit some years ago, but I do know how much these things cost. So I don't think I'm being pessimistic.

Nevertheless, let's say I've over egged it by 100%. It would still be the thick end of £300 one way on average. Clearly more for first class, a little less for pod style.

For £300 you can get the average price for a one way flight to most Eurpoean cities, the cost of getting to / from both airports, a night in a decent hotel and meals, and change.


One other comparator. There is an 'overnight' passenger train through the tunnel - the weekly ski train. Eurostar run a day train, but the logistics require a night service as well, which is effectively the ECS working, so this is run very much at marginal cost with existing stock and staff.

It leaves London around 1930, and despite using HS1 and LGV Nord, it only makes it to the Alps by 0600 the next morning. So that is a good indicator of range.

It also costs well over £100 one way, for a seat, on a train that can hold 700 people.

 

[cb a1]

I'm an intermittent user, about 4 times p.a., of the Scotland to London sleeper (on business).

Could I fly instead? Yes, but to be in London on time would mean getting up at about 5am and like a previous poster, that means I wouldn't sleep well at all the night before. The other advantage is that the train stops in lots of places, so getting to the train is much easier than getting to an airport.

The thing that absolutely nails it for me though is the trip back. Flying, I would need to be at an airport by about 7pm. If I'm heading back to Glasgow though, the sleeper leaves just before midnight which means an evening out in London. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I love it (and a few beers means I sleep like a baby all the way back tae Scotland).

 

[rf_ioliver]

Interesting discussion. Actually I think the market for short-duration sleeper trains could be quite lucrative, if managed properly.

I've used the Helsinki-Oulu sleeper, about 8 hours a few times instead of the plane; getting up early, driving to the airport and then going through security before being assaulted by overpriced coffee, water and duty free doesn't always appeal....

Before Finnish Rail (VR) removed the Oulu-Kuopio-Helsinki service, this made an excellent choice for the return - 12 hours arriving around 8am in Helsinki. Time for food*, a beer and bed.

VR actually have very nice, brand new, double deck sleeper trains now, but their market is for the skiers going to Lapland with their cars.

Now, I've wondered if providing a few Japanese style sleep capsules wouldn't be a bad idea....?

Ian

*this service was deliberately run down IMHO. The restaurant car stopped serving hot food and once was staffed by probably the rudest person I've ever met - refusing to sell anything because it disturbed her primary job ... possibly of preventing anyone buying anything, thereby proving that no-one wanted the service....ended up ordering a pizza and having it delivered to the train at Kaajani in the middle of the night The guard found it hilarious...