Could sleeper trains run through the Channel Tunnel?

[HSTEd]

Maybe it's just time to join the Schengen Agreement but keep passport checks for Non EU citizens, I'm not particularly pro EU but in these times it seems obviously that's it best for business.

I doubt EU sleepers would come to the UK though, probably better to run more Eurostars to a hub like Paris and travel from there.

How would you check if they were non EU citizens without checking everyone's passport?

Schengen means no border controls of any kind are permitted - that is the whole point.

 

[Bald Rick]

The $242bn standard guage link to Moscow from Beijing has just been approved, and China's paying for most of it.

And I guarantee it would be designed to compete well against air-fares.

I meant the sleeper wouldn't happen. And it couldn't possibly compete with air fares. The London to Glasgow sleeper can't compete with air fares on a like for like basis, so a Western Europe to Beijing sleeper has no chance.

 

[martynbristow]

I meant the sleeper wouldn't happen. And it couldn't possibly compete with air fares. The London to Glasgow sleeper can't compete with air fares on a like for like basis, so a Western Europe to Beijing sleeper has no chance.

I wouldn't be so sure! The UK has a big air obsession and budget airlines everyone loves.
If you can build and run rail cheaper which I think they can it can easily poach passengers because air travel is a faff.

Air travel doesn't consider the cost of getting to/from the airport, spend on board, inconvenience of security and checkin. It will appeal to business passengers who want a sleeper service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How would you check if they were non EU citizens without checking everyone's passport?

Schengen means no border controls of any kind are permitted - that is the whole point.

There is a problem with the Schengen Agreement that it allows this :/ There needs to be some curbs on free movement as free movement is a right for EU citizens without sanctions.
I don't like the idea that criminals can roam the continent without check or other problems.
I don't think the UK needs to or should join.

 

[Agent_c]

I wouldn't be so sure! The UK has a big air obsession and budget airlines everyone loves.
If you can build and run rail cheaper which I think they can it can easily poach passengers because air travel is a faff.

Air travel doesn't consider the cost of getting to/from the airport, spend on board, inconvenience of security and checkin. It will appeal to business passengers who want a sleeper service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is a problem with the Schengen Agreement that it allows this :/ There needs to be some curbs on free movement as free movement is a right for EU citizens without sanctions.
I don't like the idea that criminals can roam the continent without check or other problems.
I don't think the UK needs to or should join.

If its a right for EU Citizens, that would include ex cons.

That would leave you with just non-EU ex cons, who can simply be denied entry to the schengen area.

 

[najaB]

There is a problem with the Schengen Agreement that it allows this :/ There needs to be some curbs on free movement as free movement is a right for EU citizens without sanctions.
I don't like the idea that criminals can roam the continent without check or other problems.

But, on the flip side, I'm sure you like being able to take a weekend break in <insert European city> without having to worry about getting a visa. Or that you can get a job in <insert EU country> if you want to without having to get a work permit.

 

[martynbristow]

But, on the flip side, I'm sure you like being able to take a weekend break in <insert European city> without having to worry about getting a visa. Or that you can get a job in <insert EU country> if you want to without having to get a work permit.

Well I like the EU travel area, but I think if we removed ALL border checks it would prevent some law enforcement. In mainland Europe its very practical

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't be so sure! The UK has a big air obsession and budget airlines everyone loves.
If you can build and run rail cheaper which I think they can it can easily poach passengers because air travel is a faff.

Oh I am very sure.

I've worked on the sleepers, and I know how much they cost to operate. It is simply not possible to operate a sleeper over that distance at a cost per berth that can get remotely close to the cost per seat of air travel. And that's before the $200bn odd it will cost to build.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Schengen means no border controls of any kind are permitted - that is the whole point.

No. Schengen means that border controls are relaxed. There are provisions within Schengen for border controls to be enforced. For example, during the Euro football championships a few years back both France and Italy introduced full border controls to restrict "undesirables".

The free movement of people principles is related to the right for any EU citizen (UK citizens are EU citizens) to freely move, live and work in any other EU country.

The Nordic countries and Finland had (and still do) a Schengen-like agreement many years before Schengen.

Actually the Wikipedia article makes for interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

The Schengen Agreement is independent of the EU, but the provisions of Schengen were signed into EU Law via the Amsterdam Treaty. The UK and Ireland have an opt-out, though between the UK and Ireland I rarely remember passport checks anyway (at least when I travelled frequently between Wales and Ireland o the ferries, and across the NI-Eire border).

As for passport controls, the system in force on the Allegro train between Helsinki and St.Petersburg really should be adopted on Eurostar. If you consider the nature of the Russian border then the fuss made getting between Lille and Ashford always comes as an amazement to me

t.

Ian

 

[RT4038]

As for passport controls, the system in force on the Allegro train between Helsinki and St.Petersburg really should be adopted on Eurostar. If you consider the nature of the Russian border then the fuss made getting between Lille and Ashford always comes as an amazement to me

t.

Ian

But the circumstances are somewhat different. The border between Russia and Finland does not have lots of illegal immigrants desperate to cross it, with the tacit approval of the Russian government. Once on the train, in the tunnel, they can only be sent back home with a great deal of expense and hassle, hence the need to prevent them boarding the train in the first place. Not sure what is amazing about that?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I wouldn't be so sure! The UK has a big air obsession and budget airlines everyone loves.
If you can build and run rail cheaper which I think they can it can easily poach passengers because air travel is a faff.

Air travel doesn't consider the cost of getting to/from the airport, spend on board, inconvenience of security and checkin. It will appeal to business passengers who want a sleeper service.

I imagine getting a flight to China is less of a faff than catching a train to the start point of the sleeper service then spending some 3-5 days aboard to get to China. Maybe some students etc would if they added cheap seats but I would expect it to be run as a Train Hotel with luxury high cost rooms, likely to be the only way to make money and compete with the airlines.

Business travellers are not the market for sleepers. I have used night trains in various countries and never seen a suit on one. Mostly students and hikers in the cheap seats and older couples in the cabins.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The $242bn standard guage link to Moscow from Beijing has just been approved, and China's paying for most of it.

And I guarantee it would be designed to compete well against air-fares.

If not travel time. It sounds like the journey from hell to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Air travel doesn't consider the cost of getting to/from the airport, spend on board, inconvenience of security and checkin. It will appeal to business passengers who want a sleeper service.

I'm afraid your missing an important point here. By taking a flight, no matter how early it maybe you at least get to sleep in your own bed and spend the evening with your family. Not only that but from experience of many years a go being thrown around by the SNCF / RENFE / DB whilst you try and sleep isn't much fun unless you you've drank enough alcohol. And turning up to an important meeting with a hang over / sleep deprivation isn't the best policy.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I meant the sleeper wouldn't happen. And it couldn't possibly compete with air fares. The London to Glasgow sleeper can't compete with air fares on a like for like basis, so a Western Europe to Beijing sleeper has no chance.

I wouldn't be sure of that. Sleepers are a *big* part of Chinese travel, even high-speed ones. With 1.4 billion potential tourists to Europe, a market China would love to break into, I can almost guarantee that they'll run cheap ones to compete with air fares.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't be sure of that. Sleepers are a *big* part of Chinese travel, even high-speed ones. With 1.4 billion potential tourists to Europe, a market China would love to break into, I can almost guarantee that they'll run cheap ones to compete with air fares.

Your guarantee has been tempered to an 'almost guarantee'.

Sleepers might be popular in China, but most of this trip would not be in China. Standards, and costs, change somewhat once over the border. Just staffing a train for a couple of days would cost a load!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Your guarantee has been tempered to an 'almost guarantee'.

Sleepers might be popular in China, but most of this trip would not be in China. Standards, and costs, change somewhat once over the border. Just staffing a train for a couple of days would cost a load!

Obviously most of it wouldn't be in China, but my point is that that is a market twice the population of the European continent who are very much used to using sleeper trains. Even if they don't prove popular with European customers, they'll certainly be ferrying Chinese tourists. It's important to note that they're using standard gauge - not just for compatability with China, but for ongoing connections. If they weren't bothered about those they'd have gone for broad gauge, as most of it is in Russia.

And alright I'll clarify: Sleeper train to Paris? Guaranteed. Sleeper train to London? Almost guaranteed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Obviously most of it wouldn't be in China, but my point is that that is a market twice the population of the European continent who are very much used to using sleeper trains. Even if they don't prove popular with European customers, they'll certainly be ferrying Chinese tourists. It's important to note that they're using standard gauge - not just for compatability with China, but for ongoing connections. If they weren't bothered about those they'd have gone for broad gauge, as most of it is in Russia.

And alright I'll clarify: Sleeper train to Paris? Guaranteed. Sleeper train to London? Almost guaranteed.

I'll accept that there might be an occasional land cruise sleeper train the whole way, at fares set very much at the level of 'astronomical', and designed to compete with other cruises, land and sea. Such as the Indian Pacific.

But there will not be a regular overnight (or more accurately, over at least 2 nights) sleeper service designed to compete with air. It simply can't at any level.

Note that European railways have been busily closing down their sleeper services for the past decade, and they all lose pots of cash. The Caledonian sleepers are subsidised to the tune of thousands of pounds per train, and yet still more expensive than the plane. They would have been withdrawn years ago was it not that a fair proportion of the customers work just next to Westminster Bridge. There is simply no way that a sleeper that distance will be priced cheaper than the plane. Do the maths!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Obviously most of it wouldn't be in China, but my point is that that is a market twice the population of the European continent who are very much used to using sleeper trains. Even if they don't prove popular with European customers, they'll certainly be ferrying Chinese tourists. It's important to note that they're using standard gauge - not just for compatability with China, but for ongoing connections. If they weren't bothered about those they'd have gone for broad gauge, as most of it is in Russia.

And alright I'll clarify: Sleeper train to Paris? Guaranteed. Sleeper train to London? Almost guaranteed.

You appear to be assuming here that the Chinese tourists that you mention have lots and lots of holiday entitlement given how long the journey will take by rail. If they can afford a holiday in Europe one suspects that they could also afford to fly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't be sure of that. Sleepers are a *big* part of Chinese travel, even high-speed ones. With 1.4 billion potential tourists to Europe, a market China would love to break into, I can almost guarantee that they'll run cheap ones to compete with air fares.

I'm afraid the vast majority of the population of China still don't have two pennies to rub together, let alone have the means to travel beyond their own province.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You appear to be assuming here that the Chinese tourists that you mention have lots and lots of holiday entitlement given how long the journey will take by rail. If they can afford a holiday in Europe one suspects that they could also afford to fly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm afraid the vast majority of the population of China still don't have two pennies to rub together, let alone have the means to travel beyond their own province.

... I've been to China a number of times. This is categorically and demonstrably false. I mean, the fact that they have a domestic tourist market multiples larger than any other country says it all.

I'm genuinely staggered by this statement. This isn't 1980.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll accept that there might be an occasional land cruise sleeper train the whole way, at fares set very much at the level of 'astronomical', and designed to compete with other cruises, land and sea. Such as the Indian Pacific.

But there will not be a regular overnight (or more accurately, over at least 2 nights) sleeper service designed to compete with air. It simply can't at any level.

Note that European railways have been busily closing down their sleeper services for the past decade, and they all lose pots of cash. The Caledonian sleepers are subsidised to the tune of thousands of pounds per train, and yet still more expensive than the plane. They would have been withdrawn years ago was it not that a fair proportion of the customers work just next to Westminster Bridge. There is simply no way that a sleeper that distance will be priced cheaper than the plane. Do the maths!

If they're running a service from Beijing to Moscow (that will have to be sleeper as it's 36 hours) it will make little difference in terms of attractiveness to carry on to the rest of Europe.

China has an enormous sleeper market, and a middle-class that's growing extremely fast. Talk of not being able to leave your own province and all of this rubbish may have been true 30 years ago (not you I know), but this is a market they're very much wanting to tap into. You can't look at this with Euopean spectacles on.

And yes, I am perfectly capable of doing the maths - what you're forgetting is that the market between Scotland and London is a wee bit smaller than that between China and Europe. One has a combined population of 17 million, the other in the order of 2.1 billion. Even if the comparison is a little fairer and you just talk about the cities involved, you're still forgetting that the culture is different (and you've still got a catchment area of around 100 million around both Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and any other Chinese metropolis these would originate at - the cities involved at both ends plus the surrounding areas). I mean, how the hell do you think the Trans-Manchurian stays in business? I'm not taking about a 2tph service here!

 

[martynbristow]

... I've been to China a number of times. This is categorically and demonstrably false. I mean, the fact that they have a domestic tourist market multiples larger than any other country says it all.

I'm genuinely staggered by this statement. This isn't 1980.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If they're running a service from Beijing to Moscow (that will have to be sleeper as it's 36 hours) it will make little difference in terms of attractiveness to carry on to the rest of Europe.

China has an enormous sleeper market, and a middle-class that's growing extremely fast. Talk of not being able to leave your own province and all of this rubbish may have been true 30 years ago (not you I know), but this is a market they're very much wanting to tap into. You can't look at this with Euopean spectacles on.

And yes, I am perfectly capable of doing the maths - what you're forgetting is that the market between Scotland and London is a wee bit smaller than that between China and Europe. One has a combined population of 17 million, the other in the order of 2.1 billion. Even if the comparison is a little fairer and you just talk about the cities involved, you're still forgetting that the culture is different (and you've still got a catchment area of around 100 million around both Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and any other Chinese metropolis these would originate at - the cities involved at both ends plus the surrounding areas). I mean, how the hell do you think the Trans-Manchurian stays in business? I'm not taking about a 2tph service here!

There is a good argument for it but as pointed out you need to go there to see it.
I've done IC's across Europe and ICE's, its much better than flying. I've also done sleepers across Russia because you can't fly it. Planes go from A-B whereas the train can start at A call at B, C, D, d1, d2 etc and then X, Y and Z. We got on the train in the city and it took us to Moscow and people were hoping off at various stations. I looked up the airfares and its not that much cheaper to fly so if you combine it with extra costs it could work well.

 

[RichmondCommu]

... I've been to China a number of times. This is categorically and demonstrably false. I mean, the fact that they have a domestic tourist market multiples larger than any other country says it all.

I'm genuinely staggered by this statement. This isn't 1980.

You may well have been to China a number of times, however the reality is you will have only seen the China that the state wants you to see unless perhaps you have a Chinese girlfriend.

You have appeared to have conveniently forgotten one or two things whilst describing your Chinese utopia. Despite the economic transformation 50% of the population still live in rural areas and still suffer from abject poverty. So much so that young parents are having to leave their children with their extended families and go work in the huge conurbations in order to send money back to their families. They are only able to see their children a few times a year, travelling home by train which is why overnight travel is so popular. If they could afford to fly they would as it would give them more time with their children.

So essentially the rural population barely have enough money to exist let alone travel to the next the province. And a huge majority of those living in the cities can't to afford to travel either because their wages are low. Even so its hardly a startling revelation that they have such a large domestic tourist market given the huge numbers of people living in the country. Yes there is a growing middle class but if they can afford to travel to Europe for a holiday they can afford to fly.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You may well have been to China a number of times, however the reality is you will have only seen the China that the state wants you to see unless perhaps you have a Chinese girlfriend.

You have appeared to have conveniently forgotten one or two things whilst describing your Chinese utopia. Despite the economic transformation 50% of the population still live in rural areas and still suffer from abject poverty. So much so that young parents are having to leave their children with their extended families and go work in the huge conurbations in order to send money back to their families. They are only able to see their children a few times a year, travelling home by train which is why overnight travel is so popular. If they could afford to fly they would as it would give them more time with their children.

So essentially the rural population barely have enough money to exist let alone travel to the next the province. And a huge majority of those living in the cities can't to afford to travel either because their wages are low. Even so its hardly a startling revelation that they have such a large domestic tourist market given the huge numbers of people living in the country. Yes there is a growing middle class but if they can afford to travel to Europe for a holiday they can afford to fly.

My girlfriend is half-Chinese and grew up in Beijing. It is not North Korea. Christ, I genuinely don't know how to reply to this other than by stating it's almost utterly wrong. Even the bit about poor people not being able to travel is wrong - people will happily (or not) fill up the *seats* for the 30+ hour trips to far-fling places because they are cheap. Particularly around the festivals, where visiting family is extremely common. Mass migration within China is enormous right now too - look it up, which only furthers my point about people being very used to taking the train over long distances.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what to say to you other than to go there yourself. "What the Chinese state wants you to see" doesn't apply anywhere outside of perhaps Tibet, and once again it's the engrained culture of long-distance train travel that is so important and that you're not picking up on. This is not Europe, for the umpteenth time.

 

[atillathehunn]

The figures relating to China's progress in eradicating poverty are marred with confusion. I would recommend reading this article as it explains some of the statistical problems better than I can summarise, it is not very long:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/10/chinas-economy

The argument about official figures will go nowhere until this problem is understood.

As to the comment about the Chinese state allowing you to see what it wants you to see demonstrates a very clear lack of understanding about China. There are certain restrictions when applying for Chinese visas (something I have done twice in about the last three weeks) being now based in SE Asia. These include concrete information on your planned locations and addresses and a flight out (no different to many other countries I've visited). However, whence in the country you are free to move! I work for an NGO that specifically deals with illegal movements of people and land issues, so we have a fairly accurate picture, and the government has yet to interfere with us physically visiting locations in which forced movements are said to have occurred.

Visiting Europe will not go out of fashion; I've just returned from a quick visit to China, and seen adverts for Coventry University and Birmingham airport's new flights direct to China (being called Shakespeare airport!)

I'm sure TheKnight would be able to express more of the culture, but from what I have experienced of land travel in SE Asia and China, there is a wonderful culture surrounding train travel, and I can imagine taking the train from Europe to Asia would be terrific fun and would feature on my itinerary if my position remains here.

 

[RT4038]

If not travel time. It sounds like the journey from hell to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm afraid your missing an important point here. By taking a flight, no matter how early it maybe you at least get to sleep in your own bed and spend the evening with your family. Not only that but from experience of many years a go being thrown around by the SNCF / RENFE / DB whilst you try and sleep isn't much fun unless you you've drank enough alcohol. And turning up to an important meeting with a hang over / sleep deprivation isn't the best policy.

Quite so! Business people who have to do a lot of travelling, and staying away from their families anyway, generally do not want to spend more nights away travelling slowly and uncomfortably on overnight trains.
Had a business trip to Florence this week and decided to go by train using the Thello from Paris to Milan. Dreadful. Sleeping Car fine, restaurant car defective so left behind in Paris. Conductor only tells us once we get underway, so no food on the whole journey. Will I ever get on a Thello Sleeping Car train again without having had a meal - NO. Next Thello will be complaining that the Restaurant Car is badly patronised, I wonder why! Arrives in Milan 2 hours late, after several jerky stops on the way, disturbing my sleep. FS Customer Service unable to book seats on the next two trains to Florence (full), just a shrug of the shoulders... too bad! The attitude seemed to be one of 'You'll get your money back', as if that was the point! FS Customer Services 'kindly' give me permission to travel on the next train if I stand (1h40m). Wow! Recommend the journey to anyone other than an inveterate rail enthusiast - certainly not. This is by no means my first experience of this kind (and RichmondCommuter I expect?)
Sleeping car trains have had their day..

 

[TheKnightWho]

Quite so! Business people who have to do a lot of travelling, and staying away from their families anyway, generally do not want to spend more nights away travelling slowly and uncomfortably on overnight trains.
Had a business trip to Florence this week and decided to go by train using the Thello from Paris to Milan. Dreadful. Sleeping Car fine, restaurant car defective so left behind in Paris. Conductor only tells us once we get underway, so no food on the whole journey. Will I ever get on a Thello Sleeping Car train again without having had a meal - NO. Next Thello will be complaining that the Restaurant Car is badly patronised, I wonder why! Arrives in Milan 2 hours late, after several jerky stops on the way, disturbing my sleep. FS Customer Service unable to book seats on the next two trains to Florence (full), just a shrug of the shoulders... too bad! The attitude seemed to be one of 'You'll get your money back', as if that was the point! FS Customer Services 'kindly' give me permission to travel on the next train if I stand (1h40m). Wow! Recommend the journey to anyone other than an inveterate rail enthusiast - certainly not. This is by no means my first experience of this kind (and RichmondCommuter I expect?)
Sleeping car trains have had their day..

You've clearly never taken a sleeper MU then. Just because Europe is incapable of doing sleepers properly doesn't mean no-one is, and it certainly doesn't mean they've "had their day" because no-one has the imagination or innovation to improve them as they have in some parts of the world.

 

[CC 72100]

You've clearly never taken a sleeper MU then. Just because Europe is incapable of doing sleepers properly doesn't mean no-one is, and it certainly doesn't mean they've "had their day" because no-one has the imagination or innovation to improve them as they have in some parts of the world.

Your post sort of implies:

Companies that use LHCS sleepers = bad, awful, past it, "incapable of doing it properly"

Companies that use MU sleepers = visionary, fantastic, innovatory.

Rolling stock counts for nothing when the majority of the problems related to RT4038's seems to suggest a poor attitude from Thello. If the poor attitude from the service provider is the problem, then it makes no difference whether the rolling stock is LHCS, units or a trackwagon.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Your post sort of implies:

Companies that use LHCS sleepers = bad, awful, past it, "incapable of doing it properly"

Companies that use MU sleepers = visionary, fantastic, innovatory.

Rolling stock counts for nothing when the majority of the problems related to RT4038's seems to suggest a poor attitude from Thello. If the poor attitude from the service provider is the problem, then it makes no difference whether the rolling stock is LHCS, units or a trackwagon.

Of course - but my point is that several of those problems have nothing to do with the company and their attitude and lack of investment.

Sleepers *can* be good, and sleeper MU stock alleviates several of those issues that he raised.

 

[RT4038]

I think the point is that in Europe Sleeping Car trains are not seen as an economic proposition, hence why they have been on the decline over the last 50 years, almost to the point of extinction. There are also other issues, particularly related to travelling across national boundaries, which seem intractable. Perhaps when the current dismal dregs have gone, a revival might be possible without the baggage of the previous 150 years?

Not sure how MU or LHCS has much to do with it though.

 

[martynbristow]

Quite so! Business people who have to do a lot of travelling, and staying away from their families anyway, generally do not want to spend more nights away travelling slowly and uncomfortably on overnight trains.
Had a business trip to Florence this week and decided to go by train using the Thello from Paris to Milan. Dreadful. Sleeping Car fine, restaurant car defective so left behind in Paris. Conductor only tells us once we get underway, so no food on the whole journey. Will I ever get on a Thello Sleeping Car train again without having had a meal - NO. Next Thello will be complaining that the Restaurant Car is badly patronised, I wonder why! Arrives in Milan 2 hours late, after several jerky stops on the way, disturbing my sleep. FS Customer Service unable to book seats on the next two trains to Florence (full), just a shrug of the shoulders... too bad! The attitude seemed to be one of 'You'll get your money back', as if that was the point! FS Customer Services 'kindly' give me permission to travel on the next train if I stand (1h40m). Wow! Recommend the journey to anyone other than an inveterate rail enthusiast - certainly not. This is by no means my first experience of this kind (and RichmondCommuter I expect?)
Sleeping car trains have had their day..

That's why the railways have had there day and air travel will steal your passengers!
The problem isn't restricted to sleepers, it affects all trains.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's why the railways have had there day and air travel will steal your passengers!
The problem isn't restricted to sleepers, it affects all trains.

That'll be why air travel between Paris and Lyon collapsed to the point of extinction when the TGV was introduced? And why BA switched from 767s to much smaller aircraft between London and Paris when Eurostar settled in?

 

[martynbristow]

That'll be why air travel between Paris and Lyon collapsed to the point of extinction when the TGV was introduced? And why BA switched from 767s to much smaller aircraft between London and Paris when Eurostar settled in?

MY point is in response to the quoted portion.
IF passengers get that service they'll change modes.
Its about the end to end journey with value for money.
The TGV and eurostar will offer a decent service and the steal them back

 

[edwin_m]

MY point is in response to the quoted portion.
IF passengers get that service they'll change modes.
Its about the end to end journey with value for money.
The TGV and eurostar will offer a decent service and the steal them back

To be fair there are plenty of stories about awful service on the airlines as well.