Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[Sly Old Fox]

I believe it is South Western Railway who never have Sunday off without having had the Saturday too. They work roughly one in two weekends, which is a better deal than the two in three that most work on the ‘normal’ three weekly pattern. Their rosters are publicly viewable (for Waterloo at least) on the aslef site so you can get an idea of how a four day week roster can work. There’s no regular pattern but it works out never having single rest days and never working more than five or six (I forget) days consecutively.

Would quite happily have that rather than compulsory Sundays on the three weekly pattern.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I believe it is South Western Railway who never have Sunday off without having had the Saturday too.

That’s not strictly true, having looked into SWR. Their drivers all have Sundays inside, but the free day patterns do differ between depots as rosters are negotiated at local level by the ASLEF LDCs. Some depots prefer not to work more than four days in a row, where as some depots work more in a row in order to get more in a row off. I know of at least one depot where their pattern includes several occasions of working a Saturday (sometimes a late shift) then have Sunday/Monday off. But like I say, rosters are negotiated locally so that’s more down to the LDCs than the company, although one assumes each LDC will have communicated with their depot’s members about preferences when building these rosters (presumably when their four day week came in around ten years ago this would have seen rosters completely rebuilt from best scratch).

I work for a TOC that has Sundays inside and while it can mean there are Sunday events I sometimes have to miss out on, particularly in the Summer where ad-hoc leave quotas for weekends obviously get booked up a lot quicker and finding someone who wants to do a free day swap harder (eg. they work your Sunday and you work their Tuesday), I do actually prefer having Sundays inside though. I find the roster ‘cleaner’ and I know exactly when I am or aren’t working, with no need to work extra days to cover for Sundays being outside.

 

[RexMundi]

Please understand my main point, in my previous post, which is that we are now working Sundays SO REGULARLY, INSTEAD OF JUST OCCASIONALLY, AS IN YEARS GONE BY, because train operators are cashing in on leisure day travelling (weekends, bank holidays etc where everyone wants to hop on a train, instead of sitting in their back gardens like they used to).

"Hey! It's Friday! Let's spend the next 3 days going intae Manc by train n having a great time! Clubbing Friday Gig on Saturday Footie on Sunday! Kerching! Kids in tow, shops all open! TOC's just making money shipping ppl about and so they run more trains"

So who has to pay the biggest price for all that leisure n luxury lifestyle?

TRAINCREW!

We demand Sunday as part of our regular, normal week, because it has become that!

I know quite a lot of you were not even born, or were too young to know, when Sunday trading laws came in, in 1994 ... 30 years ago now!

Trains were fixed up in depots ready for Monday, the PWAY was fixed up ready for Monday, and the T3's even if they over ran were completed ready for Monday.

Now its a f&%kin' joke railway.

My last gift to my newer and equally skillled drivers and other fellow railway staff is to get in a 4 day week over 7 days, which will make employers employ more staff and give us 3 guaranteed days off every week. not 2 and one if we can not be forced to work it.

In response to questions about TOC's and Trade Union's attitudes regarding Sundays "inside" as we say in ASLEF and the RMT, the TOC's know it means more drivers, overall, but know that it guarantees a Sunday timetable too.

ASLEF and the RMT know this too, which is good for their personal gain. More members!

But the cheapest option for TOC's atm is to have Sundays rostered where we are made to work them if there is no-one else available.

Drivers who chase the extra bucks, will never like anything like this, but they are always going to be the minority, and even the case for wanting a day off on a Sunday and having to use a floating leave day (if Sunday becomes a normal day of work) is not a good enough reason for keeping Sundays outside, when the alternative at this point in time is that you are continually "leave declined" every time you try and not work your booked Sunday, and there is no-one else to do it for you!

Very well put and I totally agree

 

[XCDriver]

Next up, as soon as this current pay dispute is ended, we will renew our campaign for Sunday as part of our working week.

With renewed vigour, no less.

Notice now that Cross Country is offering drivers £600 for working a day off, as they are already in Avanti West Coast.

The reasons why are irrelevant, the fact that the TOC's absolutely want it and are desperate to pay it, is crucial.

If Sunday is part of the working week ...

GUESS WHAT THE PAYMENT FOR ASKING A DRIVER TO WORK ON A SUNDAY WILL BE IF IT IT HIS REST DAY?

THAT WILL BE THE PRICE THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY!

On average, daily, I am paid £100 for every train I drive!

On my day off, it becomes £200 for every train I drive!

Not so much when you think about the responsibility, the risk, etc

I remember when people laughed at the Railway Unions ASLEF RMT TSSA when we wanted a 1 hour reduction in the working week from 40 hours to 39 hours.

lol

No chance! Are you ppl serious?

You all mocked us! Media etc too During the Thatcherite era too, no less

BUT WE GOT IT!

THEN THE 37 HOUR WEEK!

THEN THE 35 HOUR WEEK!

NOW THE 4 DAY WEEK!

Which has been our norm for the last 20 years now, yet you are all still being denied it.

WE LEAD, AND YOU FOLLOW!

Or fail to follow actually!

We are strong!

Why? Because we dare to stand together and fight!

Our picket lines stood strong for over 2 years now, and we have our deal settled with no strings etc. But we will negotiate what they wanted if it serves our industry better, because we are not Unions who despise change, but Unions who work together with our industry to progress safely.

It is who we are!

Who are you?

 

[Moonshot]

Next up, as soon as this current pay dispute is ended, we will renew our campaign for Sunday as part of our working week.

With renewed vigour, no less.

Notice now that Cross Country is offering drivers £600 for working a day off, as they are already in Avanti West Coast.

The reasons why are irrelevant, the fact that the TOC's absolutely want it and are desperate to pay it, is crucial.

If Sunday is part of the working week ...

GUESS WHAT THE PAYMENT FOR ASKING A DRIVER TO WORK ON A SUNDAY WILL BE IF IT IT HIS REST DAY?

THAT WILL BE THE PRICE THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY!

On average, daily, I am paid £100 for every train I drive!

On my day off, it becomes £200 for every train I drive!

Not so much when you think about the responsibility, the risk, etc

I remember when people laughed at the Railway Unions ASLEF RMT TSSA when we wanted a 1 hour reduction in the working week from 40 hours to 39 hours.

lol

No chance! Are you ppl serious?

You all mocked us! Media etc too During the Thatcherite era too, no less

BUT WE GOT IT!

THEN THE 37 HOUR WEEK!

THEN THE 35 HOUR WEEK!

NOW THE 4 DAY WEEK!

Which has been our norm for the last 20 years now, yet you are all still being denied it.

WE LEAD, AND YOU FOLLOW!

Or fail to follow actually!

We are strong!

Why? Because we dare to stand together and fight!

Our picket lines stood strong for over 2 years now, and we have our deal settled with no strings etc. But we will negotiate what they wanted if it serves our industry better, because we are not Unions who despise change, but Unions who work together with our industry to progress safely.

It is who we are!

Who are you?

Much prefer Sundays outside myself......I have only worked 3 this year so far

 

[PLY2AYS]

Much prefer Sundays outside myself......I have only worked 3 this year so far

Whilst I absolutely agree with you. I think for the vast majority of TOCs the inevitable negotiation is coming on “how much do you sell them for?”

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I’ve worked 15 this year so far. Probably won’t quite make it to 26/52 but won’t be far away. Most of the ones I’ve not worked have been late Saturday to early Monday situations.

Would still rather have it in the week to have extra days off.

 

[RexMundi]

If I could have Sunday in the working week and still have my week of rds every 5 weeks I’d be quite happy.

Which I suppose would be 2 (consecutive) rds a week

 

[Moonshot]

Whilst I absolutely agree with you. I think for the vast majority of TOCs the inevitable negotiation is coming on “how much do you sell them for?”

Yes you are probably right.....and judging by some of the more recent posts it seems a fair few drivers are actually happy for Sundays inside. If I took a totally objective business view , it's probably the correct thing to do.

 

[12LDA28C]

Next up, as soon as this current pay dispute is ended, we will renew our campaign for Sunday as part of our working week.

With renewed vigour, no less.

Notice now that Cross Country is offering drivers £600 for working a day off, as they are already in Avanti West Coast.

The reasons why are irrelevant, the fact that the TOC's absolutely want it and are desperate to pay it, is crucial.

If Sunday is part of the working week ...

GUESS WHAT THE PAYMENT FOR ASKING A DRIVER TO WORK ON A SUNDAY WILL BE IF IT IT HIS REST DAY?

THAT WILL BE THE PRICE THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY!

On average, daily, I am paid £100 for every train I drive!

On my day off, it becomes £200 for every train I drive!

Not so much when you think about the responsibility, the risk, etc

I remember when people laughed at the Railway Unions ASLEF RMT TSSA when we wanted a 1 hour reduction in the working week from 40 hours to 39 hours.

lol

No chance! Are you ppl serious?

You all mocked us! Media etc too During the Thatcherite era too, no less

BUT WE GOT IT!

THEN THE 37 HOUR WEEK!

THEN THE 35 HOUR WEEK!

NOW THE 4 DAY WEEK!

Which has been our norm for the last 20 years now, yet you are all still being denied it.

WE LEAD, AND YOU FOLLOW!

Or fail to follow actually!

We are strong!

Why? Because we dare to stand together and fight!

Our picket lines stood strong for over 2 years now, and we have our deal settled with no strings etc. But we will negotiate what they wanted if it serves our industry better, because we are not Unions who despise change, but Unions who work together with our industry to progress safely.

It is who we are!

Who are you?

I don't know who you think you're talking to when you say 'you' or 'you ppl', but there's no need to shout USING CAPITALS, just a tip for you.

Yes you are probably right.....and judging by some of the more recent posts it seems a fair few drivers are actually happy for Sundays inside. If I took a totally objective business view , it's probably the correct thing to do.

It's the correct thing to do in order to provide a robust train service on a Sunday, but that still doesn't mean the TOCs want it as it will cost them too much.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It's the correct thing to do in order to provide a robust train service on a Sunday, but that still doesn't mean the TOCs want it as it will cost them too much.

There must be a significant calculation to be made by either TOCs or (more likely as franchises run out) the DfT moving forward.
If Sundays are in the working week, then that does negate any previously agreed Sunday working pay enhancement/uplift, which in theory could pay for the negotiation of Sundays in the working week in the long run.
But if the attention isn’t then drawn to a lack of drivers, and a healthy RDW agreement is made, then it would stand a lot of drivers, who already work rest days, in a much healthier position.

 

[jettofab]

Much prefer Sundays outside myself......I have only worked 3 this year so far

Can you just go not available and not have to work them? Having them committed and not being able to get rid of them is a world away from having them not committed at all, or being somewhere where there's a queue to take them off your hands.

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

Weddings; parties; gigs - music, comedy, local bands, talks, theatre shows; sports - matches at local or national and all levels in between, things like running/cycling/triathlon events, lots of classes are more readily available at weekends from swimming to yoga to sailing; festivals - music, food, transport, agricultural etc; not to mention the fact that lots of people have friends and families who work mon-fri and therefore a lot of socialising is weekend based.

 

[InOban]

which is why so many people travel at weekends and if they're young they can't afford a car or its insurance and they would like a drink.
The busiest trains of the week between Oban and Glasgow are the lunchtime trains on a Sunday.

Some people forget that the railway is a service industry. It must provide trains when the public want them, just as supermarkets are open when people want to shop.

 

[matacaster]

As it would certainly mean more drivers are needed, then the union will likely get more subs?

 

[jettofab]

I don't disagree but by the same token some people forget that a lot of people were employed with expectation X around Sunday working and have seen or will see that change. It's not unreasonable for them to want to discuss it, be compensated for it and want some recognition that the old chestnut of 'you knew that when you took the job' is very often completely untrue. Even the arguments in favour of it from a train crew perspective (being able to use leave for example) need clarification so people can be sure of what they're getting.

 

[43066]

Some people forget that the railway is a service industry. It must provide trains when the public want them, just as supermarkets are open when people want to shop.

Some people also happily complain about others not wishing to work at times they would never dream of working themselves - seemingly with no sense of irony.

Sunday working is a part of railway life (I speak as a driver with my Sundays inside, which I’m fine with), but it needs to be paid for.

bluntly, the variation is often because of the differing beliefs / attitudes of the different full time reps.

Well, okay. But that’s not quite the same thing as saying “ASLEF [as a whole] do not agree”.

It could be brought in almost everywhere for the right price. Based on those I’ve known at two TOCs majority of drivers under 50 would be in favour of it. Committed Sundays less so - very much the worst of all worlds.

 

[Goldfish62]

Weddings; parties; gigs - music, comedy, local bands, talks, theatre shows; sports - matches at local or national and all levels in between, things like running/cycling/triathlon events, lots of classes are more readily available at weekends from swimming to yoga to sailing; festivals - music, food, transport, agricultural etc; not to mention the fact that lots of people have friends and families who work mon-fri and therefore a lot of socialising is weekend based.

Everything you've mentioned there require people to work weekends in order to provide them.

 

[skyhigh]

Committed Sundays less so - very much the worst of all worlds.

Completely agree. I would be totally against them - as they were committed at my last TOC and a nightmare. Though maybe it was their specific implementation of the concept that didn't work.

On the pay overtime side, the bank had absolutely no interest in them when it came to arranging my mortgage. There was absolutely no guarantee that I would get the income. It also wasn't pensionable.

Then there was the fact they banned mutual swaps of Sundays due to complaints that people with higher equalisation were getting Sundays by swapping with mates who didn't want to work. If you did or didn't want to work, you had to inform Rosters, and they would choose who got their Sunday covered. This meant that there was absolutely no guarantee that you could get a specific Sunday off. There were always more people wanting not to work than those looking to pick up shifts - I lost track of how many family events I had to miss because of the inflexibility.

Now with Sunday inside, I can choose to book leave, or arrange a mutual swap if needed. The pay is included in the annual salary so it makes a difference to my pension and also means the bank will consider it as income.

 

[jettofab]

Everything you've mentioned there require people to work weekends in order to provide them.

Indeed. Sorry, I'm not sure if that's supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed. Sorry, I'm not sure if that's supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

I'll leave that to you to make up your own mind on.

 

[43066]

I'll leave that to you to make up your own mind on.

To be fair it’s also true that the majority of workers don’t work weekends, and that those who do often expect to be paid a substantial premium for doing so.

Railway staff work crazy shifts as it is - there literally isn’t a time, or a day of the week, that I haven’t been at work, so I can understand why some place a premium on having a guaranteed day off - especially when they were recruited and signed contracts on that basis…

 

[jettofab]

I'll leave that to you to make up your own mind on.

OK. I think you've taken a reply to someone wondering why anyone would value Sunday as a day off other than for religious or child rearing reasons and tried to artificially position train drivers as wanting not to work Sundays while taking part in activities/using facilities which require others to work Sundays and being blind to the irony. When of course, most would be aware of the nuance in the conversation around accepting unsociable hours of work on the railway and in many other industries and balancing that with time off at a time that allows those staff to maintain relationships and take part in leisure activities, particularly when the hours being discussed/sought would be a change to the terms and conditions under which many were employed. It's quite reasonable to suggest that rosters in all industries allow for quality down time while still recognising the requirement to meet business needs.

It's frustrating that discussions on here often seem to descend into false dichotomies.

 

[Goldfish62]

To be fair it’s also true that the majority of workers don’t work weekends, and that those who do often expect to be paid a substantial premium for doing so.

Railway staff work crazy shifts as it is - there literally isn’t a time, or a day of the week, that I haven’t been at work, so I can understand why some place a premium on having a guaranteed day off - especially when they were recruited and signed contracts on that basis…

As others have said I certainly understand the issue for those who have always been used to Sunday not being in the working week and like that arrangement. However, as someone with a bus industry background where I've personally never known Sundays not being in the working week I find the whole concept of Sundays being effectively optional in what is a 363 day a year public service quite bizarre. Ultimately I blame the management of the offending TOCs for not having the forsight to tackle it years ago.

 

[43066]

Ultimately I blame the management of the offending TOCs for not having the forsight to tackle it years ago.

The answer to this is that it was the self same management who actively created the situation in the first place, by recruiting traincrew with Sundays outside their contracts in order to save money, and now (at least via the last government) want to have their cake and eat it by introducing committed Sundays - well that simply won’t happen!

That said, I completely appreciate the perspective you’re coming at this from as someone from outside the industry - how were Sundays treated historically on the buses, out of interest?

 

[Goldfish62]

That said, I completely appreciate the perspective you’re coming at this from as someone from outside the industry - how were Sundays treated historically on the buses, out of interest?

Personally I've never known anything other than Sunday being just a normal rostered day (albeit with enhanced pay) since joining the industry in the early 80s. However, I do believe that some operators, usually municipals or PTEs had some element of Sundays being voluntary up until at least the 1970s. Historically there's been little consistency in Ts and Cs among bus operators, apart from the limitations being dictated by drivers hours regulations.

 

[43066]

Personally I've never known anything other than Sunday being just a normal rostered day (albeit with enhanced pay) since joining the industry in the early 80s. However, I do believe that some operators, usually municipals or PTEs had some element of Sundays being voluntary up until at least the 1970s. Historically there's been little consistency in Ts and Cs among bus operators, apart from the limitations being dictated by drivers hours regulations.

Thanks.

I’d imagine all the bus drivers have been recruited on that basis, then, so there’s a key difference with rail staff there.

Interestingly on the railway it’s also true that, once Sundays are inside the week, there’s no additional payment for working them. There’s generally a one off payment to bring them inside, and that’s it for perpetuity.

Historically there's been little consistency in Ts and Cs among bus operators, apart from the limitations being dictated by drivers hours regulations.

Exactly the same is true of the railway, of course, in fact pay and Ts and Cs are now enormously divergent between operators.

 

[Goldfish62]

Interestingly on the railway it’s also true that, once Sundays are inside the week, there’s no additional payment for working them. There’s generally a one off payment to bring them inside, and that’s it for perpetuity.

Equally "on the buses" Sunday and overtime enhancements have gradually disappeared, although plenty of operators still have them. Bus drivers are usually waged rather than salaried, being paid an hourly rate with a guaranteed minimum rostered week, eg 40 hours.

Anyway, we digress!

 

[muz379]

Everything you've mentioned there require people to work weekends in order to provide them.

Are we saying then that only people who themselves work sundays at some point are allowed to travel on trains on sunday ?

 

[TreacleMiller]

As someone who detests Sunday as a day and always have, It's my first choice day to be driving trains. Infact my record is 11 consecutive worked. Having committed Sundays mean we rarely have any difficulties in cover8ng them either.

Give me midweek rest days anytime although I am partial to the odd Saturday too.

This. Love my 3 days midweek.

 

[Falcon1200]

I find the whole concept of Sundays being effectively optional in what is a 363 day a year public service quite bizarre. Ultimately I blame the management of the offending TOCs for not having the forsight to tackle it years ago.

As mentioned before, Sundays not being part of the working week goes way back, and in my case every single Sunday I worked, from October 1978 to August 2016, was an additional turn, so it was not just the privatised railway that failed to address the issue. However a rostered Sunday was not regarded as optional, if you were booked to work you worked, unless on Annual Leave or someone else could cover.

Sundays were not always, at times, even rostered; When I started in Glasgow Control in 1984 this was the case, instead Sunday shifts were allocated on an equalisation basis, and you did not know if you were working on Sunday until the roster was posted, by 1200 on the Thursday. The place where the roster was pinned up was known as the Wailing Wall, for good reason.....