Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[GordonT]

The answer to this is that it was the self same management who actively created the situation in the first place, by recruiting traincrew with Sundays outside their contracts in order to save money, and now (at least via the last government) want to have their cake and eat it by introducing committed Sundays - well that simply won’t happen!

That said, I completely appreciate the perspective you’re coming at this from as someone from outside the industry - how were Sundays treated historically on the buses, out of interest?

Pre-1980s some bus companies relied on voluntary overtime working to cover not only Sundays but Saturdays as well. Typically Saturdays were paid at double-time and Sundays at time and a half. However bus companies had the flexibility of being able to recruit "weekend only" staff. Sometimes this would include bus company office staff supplementing their income and gaining front-line experience. Sometimes it was "professional" folk with a well-paid job outwith the industry during the week but a liking for bus driving at weekends. Some depots in those days sailed close to the wind in terms of drivers hours legislation by encouraging drivers to work double shifts. At times of major staff shortage often on Summer Saturdays some operators were able to subcontract a proportion of their private hire and tour commitments to local independent operators. Ultimately when staffing was particularly dire there would be cancellations of scheduled journeys often on fairly high frequency services to minimise the pain. Similar problems as recently encountered by various TOCs surfaced from time to time at times of industrial relations breakdown and this was probably the main catalyst for Saturdays and Sundays being incorporated into the week which in sectors of the bus industry was termed "five over seven".

 

[43066]

As mentioned before, Sundays not being part of the working week goes way back, and in my case every single Sunday I worked, from October 1978 to August 2016, was an additional turn, so it was not just the privatised railway that failed to address the issue. However a rostered Sunday was not regarded as optional, if you were booked to work you worked, unless on Annual Leave or someone else could cover.

Sundays were not always, at times, even rostered; When I started in Glasgow Control in 1984 this was the case, instead Sunday shifts were allocated on an equalisation basis, and you did not know if you were working on Sunday until the roster was posted, by 1200 on the Thursday. The place where the roster was pinned up was known as the Wailing Wall, for good reason.....

So you had committed Sundays and were expected to work with only a few days notice. There’s very good reason why the unions are opposed to such arrangements.

 

[Falcon1200]

So you had committed Sundays and were expected to work with only a few days notice. There’s very good reason why the unions are opposed to such arrangements.

Yes, but the arrangement back then, which was indeed dreadful, did not last. For most of my career Sundays were outside the working week, and committed, but also rostered, so no-one was expected to work with only a few days notice.

 

[12LDA28C]

So you had committed Sundays and were expected to work with only a few days notice. There’s very good reason why the unions are opposed to such arrangements.

Indeed. Interesting though that at many TOCs, 72-hour rostering arrangements agreed by the unions mean that often a driver won't know if they've had a day's ad-hoc Annual Leave granted until three days prior, even if applied for months in advance. Similarly with a movement off spare, potentially onto the opposite shift (dependent on Ts & Cs) not rostered until three days before.

 

[Krokodil]

Interesting though that at many TOCs, 72-hour rostering arrangements agreed by the unions mean that often a driver won't know if they've had a day's ad-hoc Annual Leave granted until three days prior, even if applied for months in advance.

Isn't there usually a guaranteed leave quota?

Similarly with a movement off spare, potentially onto the opposite shift (dependent on Ts & Cs) not rostered until three days before.

I'm glad that I have a max three hour movement. I wouldn't want to work for one of the TOCs that has weeks of spare with unlimited movement etc.

 

[dk1]

I'm glad that I have a max three hour movement. I wouldn't want to work for one of the TOCs that has weeks of spare with unlimited movement etc.

Can you just imagine? We are 3hrs on the day, 4 for a weeks work.

 

[RexMundi]

Can you just imagine? We are 3hrs on the day, 4 for a weeks work.

Man, I’ve been a week am sp before and been marked up to a week of nights, awful system

 

[dk1]

Man, I’ve been a week am sp before and been marked up to a week of nights, awful system

Jeez!!!

 

[Teddyward]

On the GE it’s 3hrs for a stand alone spare and unlimited movement for a weeks work. Also rest days are movable on that variable spare week. One week of that in every 8 week cycle.

 

[physics34]

The main gripe about bringing sundays into the working week at my TOC is the tuesday late to friday early changeover and how it will stop shift swaps for those who want to do perm lates or earlies.

I personally wouldnt mind it. I think the current saturday late to monday early shift change is unhealthy and dangerous.

Southern driver here btw.
.

 

[43066]

The main gripe about bringing sundays into the working week at my TOC is the tuesday late to friday early changeover and how it will stop shift swaps for those who want to do perm lates or earlies.

I personally wouldnt mind it. I think the current saturday late to monday early shift change is unhealthy and dangerous.

Southern driver here btw.
.

I think that’s a rotational shift problem rather than a Sundays inside problem per se.

We have Sundays inside with a long weekend but, due to no agreement for minimum time between shifts other than the 12 hour rule, this can indeed lead to finishing late sat night (0100 Sunday morning or even later if a job is amended) and being expected back at 0455 on the Monday with the Sunday a “day off”. It is ridiculous and AIUI goes against fatigue best practice in the industry.

That said if your operator has an agreement for (say) 36 hours between finishing a late and starting an early that will help.

Some people where I am do still manage permanent swaps, albeit much easier if you want permanent lates due to most favouring earlies - again that’s an issue industry wide.

 

[Krokodil]

That said if your operator has an agreement for (say) 36 hours between finishing a late and starting an early that will help.

I presume that a 32hr minimum rest day is why physics34 changes between lates and earlies midweek. It's certainly been an issue here when the drivers took Sundays inside - at least one link has changed to three weeks of earlies, three weeks of lates to allow the permanent swaps to continue. Apparently the 32hr rule doesn't apply to Sundays which are outside - as if one's bodyclock would cope any better.

It's not technically an issue for us guards when we bring Sundays inside because there is no 32hr rule for us. Even so, I did ask my rep to move a couple of things around the link to reduce the fatigue between a late Saturday and an early Monday.

 

[800 Driver]

Exactly this, don't the ASLEF top brass care that a chunk of their members might quite like the overtime, granted its not for everyone.

ASLEF is a democratic organisation and whenever this issue comes up and is debated within union structures a clear majority of members agree that rostering Sundays within a 35 hour week, where it is pensionable, covered by sick leave and drivers are able to book AL if they want the day off, is far preferable to any other way of rostering Sundays as overtime (whether committed or voluntary).

 

[66701GBRF]

ASLEF is a democratic organisation and whenever this issue comes up and is debated within union structures a clear majority of members agree that rostering Sundays within a 35 hour week, where it is pensionable, covered by sick leave and drivers are able to book AL if they want the day off, is far preferable to any other way of rostering Sundays as overtime (whether committed or voluntary).

Surprised that by now there isn't a situation where new starters start on a new contract that has sundays inside while current employees are ringfenced untill they move on/retire.

 

[Krokodil]

Surprised that by now there isn't a situation where new starters start on a new contract that has sundays inside while current employees are ringfenced untill they move on/retire.

Because to cover seven days' worth of work a TOC needs to increase its complement to seven days' worth of staff. This costs money compared with paying six days' worth of staff some overtime to work the seventh day.

 

[Harpo]

I personally wouldnt mind it. I think the current saturday late to monday early shift change is unhealthy and dangerous.

I presume that bringing Sunday inside would (in this instance) make the Sunday ‘off’ a rest day and trigger a far better rest period than 24 hours or so, to go home and back and to try to sleep twice?

Surprised that by now there isn't a situation where new starters start on a new contract that has sundays inside while current employees are ringfenced untill they move on/retire.

You can’t put both lots together on the same roster without more problems.

The Sunday insiders will need more Mon-Sat rest days on their roster covering a (insert contracted hours) week.

Sunday outsiders would have to work those ‘rest’ days as a booked turn within their contracted hours because they do Sunday as overtime.

Every time a Sunday insider gets to that extra weekday rest day you have an uncovered turn.

 

[Krokodil]

I presume that bringing Sunday inside would (in this instance) make the Sunday ‘off’ a rest day and trigger a far better rest period than 24 hours or so, to go home and back and to try to sleep twice?

At some TOCs yes, a rest day must include 32hrs rest.

 

[12LDA28C]

Isn't there usually a guaranteed leave quota?

There is, so if you're within that quota at time of application then you know you're guaranteed. Beyond that quota - it's pot luck!

 

[QueensCurve]

I’d always imagined that Sundays being outside the working week was beneficial for drivers, so how comes the drivers union is seeking to make Sundays inside?

Maybe there are benefits to it that I’m just not understanding, so please could someone explain!

Thanks

What I don't understand is why TOCs would want Sunday outside the working week. If you provide a sunday service, you need to have drivers, and other traincrew, contractually required to operate it.

 

[dk1]

What I don't understand is why TOCs would want Sunday outside the working week. If you provide a sunday service, you need to have drivers, and other traincrew, contractually required to operate it.

It’s purely down to cost. I’m sure some would rather reduce or cancel. Perhaps GBR will throw more money at it, but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[12LDA28C]

What I don't understand is why TOCs would want Sunday outside the working week. If you provide a sunday service, you need to have drivers, and other traincrew, contractually required to operate it.

Quite obviously, and as mentioned many times in this thread, because it would cost a fortune to recruit the many additional drivers required to fill the gaps in the roster created by having Sunday as part of the working week. It's easier and cheaper to rely on drivers working overtime.

 

[kourblimey]

Is there an expectation that under GBR, all TOC’s would have Sundays inside the working week, and much similar working conditions across the board? Or could there yet still be major differences between train companies?

 

[Falcon1200]

It's easier and cheaper to rely on drivers working overtime.

And for many years having Sundays outside the working week functioned perfectly well, and not just for Traincrew grades; The same system applied to various roles during my railway career, eg booking office clerk, TOPS clerk and Controller. But, for various reasons, it is no longer a satisfactory or reliable way of running the railway.

 

[dk1]

Is there an expectation that under GBR, all TOC’s would have Sundays inside the working week, and much similar working conditions across the board? Or could there yet still be major differences between train companies?

Major differences for years to come I would say.

 

[43066]

I presume that bringing Sunday inside would (in this instance) make the Sunday ‘off’ a rest day and trigger a far better rest period than 24 hours or so, to go home and back and to try to sleep twice?

As noted above, this depends on local agreements, and isn’t necessarily the case.

What I don't understand is why TOCs would want Sunday outside the working week. If you provide a sunday service, you need to have drivers, and other traincrew, contractually required to operate it.

Explained many times on this, and many other threads. It’s a little odd that this question keeps cropping up.

Major differences for years to come I would say.

Agreed.

 

[dk1]

Agreed.

I just can’t see this being explored to any extent mate, and then if it was it’s all got to be agreed. Be happy to be proved wrong as somebody who is happy to work Sundays over any other day.

 

[43066]

I just can’t see this being explored to any extent mate, and then if it was it’s all got to be agreed. Be happy to be proved wrong as somebody who is happy to work Sundays over any other day.

The direction of travel has been to try and bring in committed Sundays, which I doubt will be viewed as acceptable from the ASLEF side, unless staff could opt out, which is really just another variant of Sundays outside.

I doubt Sundays being brought properly into the week will be preferred from the employer side, for cost reasons, so yes indeed. Most likely we will remain as we are, with legacy arrangements in place, unless there’s an appetite at DfT level to change things by local negotiation.

This has all been covered on page 2 of the thread. I just don’t understand why the same questions keep being repeated!

 

[Red Rover]

One of the core principles of the railway unions is better pay, fewer hours.
Sundays as a part of the working week is a slow natural progression to that goal, tax in the drivers case will push it quicker, on a personal note it should be within the working week so ALL railway staff can enjoy two days off together.

 

[Moonshot]

One of the core principles of the railway unions is better pay, fewer hours.
Sundays as a part of the working week is a slow natural progression to that goal, tax in the drivers case will push it quicker, on a personal note it should be within the working week so ALL railway staff can enjoy two days off together.

Well I have Sundays outside, and I always have a minimum of 2 days off together....which goes up to a 5 day long weekend every three weeks.

 

[dk1]

Well I have Sundays outside, and I always have a minimum of 2 days off together....which goes up to a 5 day long weekend every three weeks.

Exactly the same here. Not done a 5-day week (excluding Sundays) for years.