Could Stadler FLIRT trains have been ordered for other franchises, such as EMR, XC?

[stuu]

There are 120mph sections on the MML South of East Midlands Parkway

But that is fairly likely to be electrified before any new trains are delivered

 

[dk1]

I guess you on GA are used to driving in relative silence, but most other non-electric TOCs have cabs in vehicles with engines, be they locomotives or underneath, so it'd be hard for those drivers to really complain.

Yes I drove them for many years. Lots more driver involvement these days however as well as noise reduction measures. Only downside now is I can hear more of the passengers racket behind me.

 

[Trainbike46]

Though that will be in a train built to European loading gauge. It’s not necessarily a done deal that the same can occur in a UK-spec train.

Given that stadler put in a bit for the contract that was won by the 810s at EMR, I think it is fair to say that Stadler clearly is capable of building a UK-spec 125mph bimode

 

[Sorcerer]

Though that will be in a train built to European loading gauge. It’s not necessarily a done deal that the same can occur in a UK-spec train.

Stadler have already built electric and bi-mode FLIRT designs to British loading gauge standards. Granted they are FLIRT 160 designs rather than FLIRT 200 (the numbers are in reference to their max design speed in km/h) but I still believe the manufacturer is perfectly capable of building the latter to a UK specification. If not a bi-mode unit then most definitely a purely electric one where applicable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Stadler have already built electric and bi-mode FLIRT designs to British loading gauge standards. Granted they are FLIRT 160 designs rather than FLIRT 200 (the numbers are in reference to their max design speed in km/h) but I still believe the manufacturer is perfectly capable of building the latter to a UK specification. If not a bi-mode unit then most definitely a purely electric one where applicable.

I’m not clear how a pure EMU would be ‘applicable’ for CrossCountry or EMR (which will have significant un-wired diversionary routes even if the core Sheffield/Nottingham axis is eventually done).

 

[Trainbike46]

I’m not clear how a pure EMU would be ‘applicable’ for CrossCountry or EMR (which will have significant un-wired diversionary routes even if the core Sheffield/Nottingham axis is eventually done).

Given that the EMU and bimode FLIRTs are technically almost identical, with the only real difference being that the bimodes have added gensets, I think the experience from the the EMU FLIRTs is absolutely applicable

It's really the same idea as the EMU 80x and the bimode 80x - they're very similar trains across power types.

Stadler have already built electric and bi-mode FLIRT designs to British loading gauge standards. Granted they are FLIRT 160 designs rather than FLIRT 200 (the numbers are in reference to their max design speed in km/h) but I still believe the manufacturer is perfectly capable of building the latter to a UK specification. If not a bi-mode unit then most definitely a purely electric one where applicable.

They have explicitly participated in tenders to build 125mph bimode FLIRTs in the UK, if they couldn't build that, they wouldn't have participated in those tenders

 

[Sorcerer]

I’m not clear how a pure EMU would be ‘applicable’ for CrossCountry or EMR (which will have significant un-wired diversionary routes even if the core Sheffield/Nottingham axis is eventually done).

I was mostly speaking in terms of theory. For EMR and XC specifically of course an EMU wouldn't be applicable even though I would like to see all InterCity mainlines eventually electrified.

They have explicitly participated in tenders to build 125mph bimode FLIRTs in the UK, if they couldn't build that, they wouldn't have participated in those tenders

I suppose that settles the debate then, though I am now curious to see whether or not they have ever actually done a 125mph bi-mode FLIRT elsewhere (time for me to do some research). Regardless I'm sure they would be of better quality in the UK than some other brand new stock.

 

[stuu]

I was mostly speaking in terms of theory. For EMR and XC specifically of course an EMU wouldn't be applicable even though I would like to see all InterCity mainlines eventually electrified.


I suppose that settles the debate then, though I am now curious to see whether or not they have ever actually done a 125mph bi-mode FLIRT elsewhere (time for me to do some research). Regardless I'm sure they would be of better quality in the UK than some other brand new stock.

They haven't. Very few places are stupid enough to run trains at 125mph without electrifying them first

 

[TheWierdOne]

Anything with ‘power cars’ or the shorter FLIRT ‘power packs’ tends to go against that. Under-floor equipment, whether transformers, batteries or diesel engines, makes it very hard to achieve level boarding. It’s a very hard trade-off.

Given that Stadler is adept at making more unconventional door layouts couldn’t you just make it so the doors are on the platform with passenger and/or traction areas at one or both ends overhanging

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that Stadler is adept at making more unconventional door layouts couldn’t you just make it so the doors are on the platform with passenger and/or traction areas at one or both ends overhanging

That's basically what Merseyrail did (hence the single door end coaches) but ended up extending most of the platforms anyway so the crew door could be accessed. The other way you can do it is ASDO. But at termini it doesn't really work as there's typically a signal at the platform end and no room to overhang at the other end.

 

[TheWierdOne]

That's basically what Merseyrail did (hence the single door end coaches) but ended up extending most of the platforms anyway so the crew door could be accessed. The other way you can do it is ASDO. But at termini it doesn't really work as there's typically a signal at the platform end and no room to overhang at the other end.

Given that termini are generally fairly roomy I doubt that would be an issue for the routes in question

 

[Dr Hoo]

Given that termini are generally fairly roomy I doubt that would be an issue for the routes in question

Err, have you ever been to St Pancras (or Sheffield platform 7 bay for that matter)?

Anything longer than 240-metres for a 10-car Class 810 or 12-car Class 360 (or 120-metres at Sheffield) won’t fit.

 

[QSK19]

I'll be stunned if they are replaced by anything other than a 170 cascade from a replacement project elsewhere with a plan for the 170s to see service until 2040.

Indeed. IMO, EMR’s Regional operation will most likely forever be made up of cascades from other operators - as much as it pains me to say this, there isn’t a financial justification for new trains (I seem to remember Modern Railways stating that only 5% of revenue comes from Regional?).

The only way any FLIRTs would come into the fleet would be when GA are done with their 755s in 20-25 years’ time*, probably coinciding with when the 170s have finally completely had it.

*But by that point, they’ll probably themselves be half knackered (GA>EMR cascades have reputation for that, 156/9s & 360s!) and something slightly newer may be available.

 

[A0]

And EMR order them for replacement of their 158.. we seem to be at a standstill at the moment of not wanting to order anything that's not electric or battery, this is actually increasing climate change as new engines are far more efficient

Bit in bold - not sure how you can claim existing engines which are already in use are "increasing climate change". If they were being used more intensively than they were in the past you might have a case, but I'm not sure that's the case. Sure replacing them with newer units would reduce emissions assuming the new units have lower emissions, but to try to claim the continued use of existing units is increasing climate change is stretching it somewhat.

 

[stevieinselby]

Indeed. IMO, EMR’s Regional operation will most likely forever be made up of cascades from other operators - as much as it pains me to say this, there isn’t a financial justification for new trains (I seem to remember Modern Railways stating that only 5% of revenue comes from Regional?).

The only way any FLIRTs would come into the fleet would be when GA are done with their 755s in 20-25 years’ time*, probably coinciding with when the 170s have finally completely had it.

*But by that point, they’ll probably themselves be half knackered (GA>EMR cascades have reputation for that, 156/9s & 360s!) and something slightly newer may be available.

I would have expected the economics of East Midlands' provincial services to be pretty similar to Anglia's – both running rural services across sparsely-populated areas connecting into larger cities. I'm intrigued as to why GA could justify investing in 755s but EMR only gets cast-offs – not that there's anything wrong with 170s for that kind of rural network, but I didn't see anything wrong with them for GA either!

It will be really interesting to look at passenger numbers on GA provincial services over the 5 years following the introduction of the 755s, and see how the trajectory compares with EMR provincial services and other similar networks over the same period, to see how much of an impact that investment has had.

 

[QSK19]

I'm intrigued as to why GA could justify investing in 755s but EMR only gets cast-offs.

I think part of it was rather unfortunate timing for EMR: its sister franchises - WMT and GA - were able to place orders before the Covid days when finance was favourable and quality was a major factor. The result is gleaming 196s & 730s at the former and the fantastic FLIRT fleet at the latter (as well as 720s).

EMR’s fleet refresh came too late - the DfT had started counting the beans, to the point that we still have not got a single refurbished train over 5 years later (though that is now underway thankfully). On hindsight, I’m actually amazed that EMR got the 170s and weren’t told to keep running the 156s.

 

[dk1]

It will be really interesting to look at passenger numbers on GA provincial services over the 5 years following the introduction of the 755s, and see how the trajectory compares with EMR provincial services and other similar networks over the same period, to see how much of an impact that investment has had.

Regional GA services have boomed with lines like the Bittern (renowned for booming ) surpassing some previous records during the pandemic itself. The reliability is in the high 90s almost every day across the routes 755s operate and these services suffer no crew issues at the weekend either. The extra capacity has already been eaten up on many trains with on/off talk about making some 3-cars up to 4 but nothing has come of this so far. At my local station Brundall Gardens for example the annual entries/exits which for a decade or more stayed under 10,000 journeys jumped to 14,458 in 2022/23 before rising sharply again to 19,246 in the recently released figures. Just goes to show that if you offer the public a decent reliable service they’ll use it.

 

[stevieinselby]

I think part of it was rather unfortunate timing for EMR: its sister franchises - WMT and GA - were able to place orders before the Covid days when finance was favourable and quality was a major factor. The result is gleaming 196s & 730s at the former and the fantastic FLIRT fleet at the latter (as well as 720s).

EMR’s fleet refresh came too late - the DfT had started counting the beans, to the point that we still have not got a single refurbished train over 5 years later (though that is now underway thankfully). On hindsight, I’m actually amazed that EMR got the 170s and weren’t told to keep running the 156s.

In a sane world (although I'm well aware that that isn't always what we operate in!), a TOC would only be able to replace mid-life vehicles with new ones once a new home was identified for the old trains – unless there's something seriously wrong with them, we shouldn't be pensioning off vehicles that are only 20 years old. So the question then is not so much who gets new trains, but who gets the new trains.

Regional GA services have boomed with lines like the Bittern (renowned for booming ) surpassing some previous records during the pandemic itself. The reliability is in the high 90s almost every day across the routes 755s operate and these services suffer no crew issues at the weekend either. The extra capacity has already been eaten up on many trains with on/off talk about making some 3-cars up to 4 but nothing has come of this so far. At my local station Brundall Gardens for example the annual entries/exits which for a decade or more stayed under 10,000 journeys jumped to 14,458 in 2022/23 before rising sharply again to 19,246 in the recently released figures. Just goes to show that if you offer the public a decent reliable service they’ll use it.

That's great to hear, and there's definitely a lesson there for DfT on the benefits of investment when it leads so directly to improved usage. I'm not optimistic, but let's hope it does impact on how we commission new trains in the future.

 

[class26]

Indeed. IMO, EMR’s Regional operation will most likely forever be made up of cascades from other operators - as much as it pains me to say this, there isn’t a financial justification for new trains (I seem to remember Modern Railways stating that only 5% of revenue comes from Regional?).

The only way any FLIRTs would come into the fleet would be when GA are done with their 755s in 20-25 years’ time*, probably coinciding with when the 170s have finally completely had it.

*But by that point, they’ll probably themselves be half knackered (GA>EMR cascades have reputation for that, 156/9s & 360s!) and something slightly newer may be available.

EMR`s regional services make that little maybe because on my line (Boston) they don`t ever bother collecting the fares.

 

[dk1]

EMR`s regional services make that little maybe because on my line (Boston) they don`t ever bother collecting the fares

Wonder why that is? At my TOC conductors are actively interviewed if their revenue is unusually lower than average. Sounds like very poor middle management.