Could stock temporarily be brought in from somewhere to replace the class 313 units until the class 377 units arrive?

[RobShipway]

Okay, it looks from thread https://railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-class-313-twilight.231486/ that the Southern Class 313 units will be withdrawn in December.

At the moment Southern is awaiting class 377 units to come from Southern Eastern, who in turn are awaiting the delayed class 707 units to come from SWR.

As I posted in the above thread, I can see many Coastway services come December being cancelled due to lack of stock and replaced for a few months by bus replacement services, as I don't suppose that the DFT will extend again the ability for the class 313's to be used into 2023. The question then is can stock temporarily be brought in from somewhere to replace the class 313 units until the class 377 units arrive?

I know there is some surplus class 387 Gatwick Express units, but I am not sure there is enough of those to replace all class 313's on Coastway services. Does Great Northern have any surplus class 387 stock? But I will post further questions on this in the Speculation Discussion area.

Could the following occur if only temporarily, which is that Great Northern hire in 19 class 379 units to replace 19 of their class 387 units and those units replace say 19 of the class 377/3 units, which then are used to work the coastway services?

If the answer is to just provide replacement bus services, then with the strike action going on over the next few months I can see Southern along with many other operators in the country losing passengers to local bus services, using their car or alternatively permanently working from home if possible so that they do not have the issues with having to travel. This could mean, that we have just as many branch lines closing as there was in the time of Beeching.

Long term I think that Southern need to think about what to use on the Coastway lines in the future, whether it is something link class 484 being dedicated units for the Coastway routes or have tri - mode/bimode Stadler flirt trains that can be used on diesel/battery power where it could be used to replace the class 171 units on Uckfield and Ashford services, but also have the capability to run either AC OHLE or DC 3rd rail so could be used on Cosstway services.

 

[JonathanH]

Okay, it looks from thread https://railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-class-313-twilight.231486/ that the Southern Class 313 units will be withdrawn in December.

I think it the latest posts say that 3 units will be withdrawn in December, not all 19. Removing 3 units from the fleet is not an issue as there are fewer 313 diagrams than there used to be, now that the West Worthing shuttles don't run any more.

I dont think any ideas of 379s entering service to displace units to Southern are realistic. The question I still have is why the 12 377s can't simply be displaced from Southeastern by some contraction of services or formations.

So long as the 313s remain serviceable, perhaps with spares from the withdrawn units, they can be kept going until the 377s are made available.

Long term I think that Southern need to think about what to use on the Coastway lines in the future

The ideal situation is that they just use 377s.

 

[RobShipway]

I think it the latest posts say that 3 units will be withdrawn in December, not all 19. Removing 3 units from the fleet is not an issue as there are fewer 313 diagrams than there used to be, now that the West Worthing shuttles don't run any more.

I dont think any ideas of 379s entering service to displace units to Southern are realistic. The question I still have is why the 12 377s can't simply be displaced from Southeastern by some contraction of services or formations.

So long as the 313s remain serviceable, perhaps with spares from the withdrawn units, they can be kept going until the 377s are made available.


The ideal situation is that they just use 377s.

I cannot disagree with your comments JonathanH. But I do think that the issue is, that TOC's, train leasing companies and the DFT think too much about dedicated units for routes.

The question of replacing the remaining class 313 units still exists and should be done with replacing the class 171 units so that they can go to EMR.

 

[D365]

I cannot disagree with your comments JonathanH. But I do think that the issue is, that TOC's, train leasing companies and the DFT think too much about dedicated units for routes.

Are you saying that all of the above have got their calculations wrong?

Note that the remainder of the Class 170s for EMR will now come from WMR and Wales, instead of from WMR and Southern.

 

[JonathanH]

Note that Class 170s for EMR will now come from Wales instead of from Sussex.

Apart from the ones that have already gone.

 

[D365]

Apart from the ones that have already gone.

Correction applied.

 

[RobShipway]

Are you saying that all of the above have got their calculations wrong?

Note that the remainder of the Class 170s for EMR will now come from WMR and Wales, instead of from WMR and Southern.

Apart from the ones that have already gone.

It does not leave many class 171 units to be doing both the Ashford and Uckfield routes. You are likely to be seeing two car trains, where four are required as a minimum.

With regards to the remaining class 313's, if the winter this year stays lukewarm as it has been the last few years they maybe able to get through to retirement. But should it get really cold through Winter into next year, I can see either buses substituting trains on coastway routes especially Seaford - Brighton and possibly people reverting to using the bus services over the trains from Seaford - Brighton, not only on the basis that it is cheaper, but will also be more reliable to get them to their location. Hence, why Southern should have thought about replacing the 313's 2 - 3 years ago and should have made an order for something similar to the Greater Anglia class 755 flirts, but with the ability to also be powered by DC 3rd rail.

 

[JonathanH]

Hence, why Southern should have thought about replacing the 313's 2 - 3 years ago and should have made an order for something similar to the Greater Anglia class 755 flirts, but with the ability to also be powered by DC 3rd rail.

2 to 3 years ago, they were apparently considering doing something with 376s to fit batteries, which is why the 171s were available to go elsewhere.

755-alike units have never been on the agenda as far as speculation has gone. I really don't see why they would be in Southern's case.

 

[Recessio]

Did Southern get a reprieve by getting any spare parts from when the GN 313s were scrapped? Or are they now really clutching at straws to keep the remaining units going?

Honestly my expectation as a long-suffering Seaford branch user is that SN will just make us suffer through it with whatever stock they've already got until the 701 cascade comes in.

 

[D365]

Did Southern get a reprieve by getting any spare parts from when the GN 313s were scrapped? Or are they now really clutching at straws to keep the remaining units going?

Honestly my expectation as a long-suffering Seaford branch user is that SN will just make us suffer through it with whatever stock they've already got until the 701 cascade comes in.

Not sure if any spares from the Eversholt 313/0s would have passed to Beacon.

How are the SWR Class 701s involved in this?

 

[CarrotPie]

How are the SWR Class 701s involved in this?

They displace the 707s, which will go to Southeastern, which will in turn release the 377/5s back to GTR, which can then finally displace the 313s. Plus Southern then only runs all the 377s, which is brilliant from a maintenance standpoint.

 

[JonathanH]

How are the SWR Class 701s involved in this?

A 701 > 707 > 465 > 377/5 > 313 cascade is suggested to be the reason the 313s are still in service.

 

[Southern Dvr]

As I’ve mentioned countless times elsewhere, there are numerous 465/2 & 466 units in store. Reactivating those would free up the 377/5 units.

 

[cav1975]

If the 777s ever enter service there will be plenty of 507s and 508s available.

 

[CarrotPie]

If the 777s ever enter service there will be plenty of 507s and 508s available.

Which are only a few years younger than the 313s, and would need to be rebranded etc. if Southern were to use them long-term.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Which are only a few years younger than the 313s, and would need to be rebranded etc. if Southern were to use them long-term.

And require conversion courses for the crews etc etc etc. not going to happen.

 

[Recessio]

Not even sure if the 507/508s would be any good for spares, they're even more knackered than the 313s in my experience

 

[RobShipway]

And require conversion courses for the crews etc etc etc. not going to happen.

Not even sure if the 507/508s would be any good for spares, they're even more knackered than the 313s in my experience

I would have to agree with the two above comments. Even if the 507/508 trains where used, what would be the point in training crews on them, when they would probably be scrapped after about 2 - 3 years. You might as well get new trains to replace the class 313 units or get similar trains to existing stock where little or no conversion courses for crews need to take place.

 

[David Goddard]

As I’ve mentioned countless times elsewhere, there are numerous 465/2 & 466 units in store. Reactivating those would free up the 377/5 units.

Absolutely. Problem could be solved very quickly if the stored 465/2s were returned to use with Southeastern, so the 377/5s can return to Southern, who then have an all Electrostar railway, and Coastway customers get the step change in standard of train.

 

[92002]

Absolutely. Problem could be solved very quickly if the stored 465/2s were returned to use with Southeastern, so the 377/5s can return to Southern, who then have an all Electrostar railway, and Coastway customers get the step change in standard of train.

350/1s were originally built for ac/dc. The dc is currently in train bur not connected. Quite a few few in store.

Most 365s have now bern scrapoed

 

[NSE]

It does seem obvious. Take the 379’s for GN, all 387’s to SN (the ones already with the franchise, not all the GWR etc!). It just seems ludicrous to have a full fleet of good quality EMU’s sitting doing nothing.

 

[dodecahedron67]

The 465/2s in store are in a worse state than the 313s. I would imagine the chance of them coming back is very small

 

[CarrotPie]

The 465/2s in store are in a worse state than the 313s. I would imagine the chance of them coming back is very small

How come? They've barely been a store for a year.

 

[gmaguire]

The 465/2s in store are in a worse state than the 313s. I would imagine the chance of them coming back is very small

I was told that 466004 recently came back from storage. Surely the 465/2s aren’t in any worse condition than the 466s.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I was told that 466004 recently came back from storage. Surely the 465/2s aren’t in any worse condition than the 466s.

I believe there is severe structural issues from corrosion with a lot of the /2s

 

[JonathanH]

It does seem obvious. Take the 379’s for GN, all 387’s to SN (the ones already with the franchise, not all the GWR etc!). It just seems ludicrous to have a full fleet of good quality EMU’s sitting doing nothing.

Yes, it was the plan but it isn't now.

Firstly, the 387s are ready for ETCS on the GN so leaving them there saves fitting ETCS to another fleet.

Secondly, Southern has developed a timetable and stock plan that doesn't need any more units.

Thirdly, it is easier to eek a little bit more life out of the 313s until replacements are ready.

Fourthly, it is suggested that all government departments have been instructed to cut their budgets. That will include the transport department so why are they going to provide funding to use a fleet of trains that they don't have to lease?

Using the 379s (and indeed off lease 465/2s) is a direct avoidable cost to the taxpayer. I imagine that the DfT will be entirely comfortable with the 465/2s, 379s (and the 313s) going for scrap in the near future. They have absolutely nothing to lose from this happening.

I guess what we really need is an MP to ask a question in the House of Commons about future use of the 379s in connection with capacity issues on rail services in their constituency to find out whether they actually are the solution to a problem or not in the DfT's plans.

 

[TransportHub]

The first 313s are off to scrap tomorrow

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1024 Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) | 10/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1024 departure from Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) on 10/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There are no replacements

 

[Snow1964]

The first 313s are off to scrap tomorrow

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1024 Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) | 10/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1024 departure from Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) on 10/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There are no replacements

Why Eastleigh
Or is component recovery that cannot be done at the Southern depot?

 

[TransportHub]

Why Eastleigh
Or is component recovery that cannot be done at the Southern depot?

could jus be because they got the contract, like with the 317s and some of the 442s

 

[swt_passenger]

The first 313s are off to scrap tomorrow

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1024 Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) | 10/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1024 departure from Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh Arlington (Zg) on 10/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There are no replacements

Might this news have been more suited to the main 313 withdrawal thread in “rolling stock”?

Southern Class 313 withdrawal/storage/scrapping updates

My son wants to catch a 313 from Brighton tomorrow (Saturday) afternoon. Does anyone know if and how often they are likely to run? We’re making a special trip from London, so keen to have any info so I can manage expectations. Thank you. Brighton - Seaford Littlehampton - Portsmouth

www.railforums.co.uk