Could Swansea benefit from a Stuttgart 21 style rebuild?

[popeter45]

Swansea Station suffers from similar issues to Stuttgart has in being a terminus station that is midway along a few mainlines, so needs longer dwell times to reverse trains.

Another more Swansea-centric issue is the sharp curve at Neath that slows trains down to 40mph as well as its lack of access to the Swansea District line, so limiting the ability to develop that line for local use.

My idea would be to take note of the Stuttgart 21 project and look at how Swansea Station could be re-sited / rebuilt as a through station.

The idea would be to reuse the south section of the Vale of Neath railway that leads to the docks as a new southern route to the station via a junction just south of Briton Ferry. From there, a tunnel under the docks would lead to a new station either at the current station's site or where Parc Tawe shopping center currently is.

After that, depending on options, it would then either reconnect to the existing tracks towards Landore or under High Street and Carmarthen Road to a new junction with the Main line.

Such a station could allow a Spiral-like commuter service of Camarthen>Llanelli>Swansea District Line>Swansea Main Station> Llansamlet>Neath>Briton Ferry> Port Talbot Parkway.

 

[anthony263]

There was talk of a new link a few years ago of a new allingement from Swansea burrows. Can't remember the link but I do remember the storm it caused from people in neath.

Think tfw had their own on street allingement to take tram trains over from Swansea burrows to high street station

 

[The exile]

With all due respect to West Wales, the traffic volume involved at Swansea is a tiny fraction of what is affected at Stuttgart.
Also worth pointing out that Stuttgart 21 is a project that makes the GWML electrification look like a model of perfection in terms of delivery on time and within budget - so be careful what you wish for!

 

[stuu]

I'm sure that would make operations easier but the no one is going to pay £3bn+ for that unless it runs directly through an oil field or something

 

[The exile]

I'm sure that would make operations easier but the no one is going to pay £3bn+ for that unless it runs directly through an oil field or something

And if it does it’ll cost that with at least one more zero on the end.

 

[PMN1]

Given the way Swansea developed and the way the railways in Swansea developed, could the station have been a through station from the start?

 

[Smwrff]

I think that a better solution would be to create a new Swansea Parkway Station on the District Line - near Llansamlet - to take all Intercity services currently serving Swansea High Street. This would also serve as terminus for all Heart of Wales services and West Wales services.

Intercity trains would only stop at Llanelli-Swansea Parkway-Port Talbot

At the same time I would create a local network of tram-trains:

Port Talbot- Neath-Swansea High Street (the existing Intercity route plus Swanline stations)
Llanelli - Cocket - Swansea High Street - Swansea Docks - Llandarcy - Neath
Mumbles - Swansea High Street - Landore- Swansea Parkway -Pontardawe

(Selects a pitchfork)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that a better solution would be to create a new Swansea Parkway Station on the District Line - near Llansamlet - to take all Intercity services currently serving Swansea High Street. This would also serve as terminus for all Heart of Wales services and West Wales services.

Intercity trains would only stop at Llanelli-Swansea Parkway-Port Talbot

At the same time I would create a local network of tram-trains:

Port Talbot- Neath-Swansea High Street (the existing Intercity route plus Swanline stations)
Llanelli - Cocket - Swansea High Street - Swansea Docks - Llandarcy - Neath
Mumbles - Swansea High Street - Landore- Swansea Parkway -Pontardawe

(Selects a pitchfork)

That's sort of what DB did in Kassel with Wilhelmshoehe vs. Hbf, but without the motivation of a high speed line to do it it appears this would be a costly way of making the railway less convenient for everyone just to avoid a reversal.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Given the way Swansea developed and the way the railways in Swansea developed, could the station have been a through station from the start?

Almost certainly, although you would probably have located it on Oystermouth Road rather than High Street.

The problem was that Swansea had a ridiculous number of Terminus stations, seven of them in all, operated by five different rail companies.

It would have been pretty straight forward to link the RSBR's Swansea Riverside with the LNWR's Swansea Victoria to create a through line but neither were operated by GWR so the question didn't arise.

 

[Topological]

I have long thought a station on the docks would be good to give quicker journey times to Cardiff. However, I do not actually know what the saving would be when current infrastructure is used.

The OP envisions a tunnel to smooth the alignment between the Vale of Neath and the main line near Baglan. I do not know how deep the River Neath is, but that does seem like a lot of expense.

I would actually explore the Vale of Neath as the centre of a Swansea Metro. One line being to Neath (and ideally on to Hirawaun to connect with Cardiff), one line being to Port Talbot and then up to Maesteg (using the freight chord near Pyle), one line using the Swansea District Line to Lanelli. Operating with similar tram trains to Cardiff would allow a route into Swansea itself.

GWR and the Manchester trains would continue to serve High Street, as would Swanline for Skewen.

However, the whole thing is far too expensive.

I would just like to see electrification from Cardiff.

 

[popeter45]

I have long thought a station on the docks would be good to give quicker journey times to Cardiff. However, I do not actually know what the saving would be when current infrastructure is used.

The OP envisions a tunnel to smooth the alignment between the Vale of Neath and the main line near Baglan. I do not know how deep the River Neath is, but that does seem like a lot of expense.

I would actually explore the Vale of Neath as the centre of a Swansea Metro. One line being to Neath (and ideally on to Hirawaun to connect with Cardiff), one line being to Port Talbot and then up to Maesteg (using the freight chord near Pyle), one line using the Swansea District Line to Lanelli. Operating with similar tram trains to Cardiff would allow a route into Swansea itself.

GWR and the Manchester trains would continue to serve High Street, as would Swanline for Skewen.

However, the whole thing is far too expensive.

I would just like to see electrification from Cardiff.

to clairify the idea would be a tunnel under the tawe and docks, the Neath would prob be a bridge similar to the M4 crossing next to it

 

[Topological]

to clairify the idea would be a tunnel under the tawe and docks, the Neath would prob be a bridge similar to the M4 crossing next to it

That will also require substantive engineering. Firstly to obtain the height gain to go over the Neath at the same height as the A48 and then to lose the height again to rejoin the Vale of Neath line at Jersey Marine. I suspect you would be looking at an overbridge in Jersey Marine and then not losing the height until behind Amazon at the very least. Such a bridge might not be popular. There would need to be some tunnelling, presumably under the M4, as there is a small hill in the way.

The tunnel in Swansea has similar topology issues. High Street Station is quite high up compared to the river and you need to go under the river.

 

[zwk500]

Swansea Station suffers from similar issues to Stuttgart has in being a terminus station that is midway along a few mainlines, so needs longer dwell times to reverse trains.

Another more Swansea-centric issue is the sharp curve at Neath that slows trains down to 40mph as well as its lack of access to the Swansea District line, so limiting the ability to develop that line for local use.

My idea would be to take note of the Stuttgart 21 project and look at how Swansea Station could be re-sited / rebuilt as a through station.

The idea would be to reuse the south section of the Vale of Neath railway that leads to the docks as a new southern route to the station via a junction just south of Briton Ferry. From there, a tunnel under the docks would lead to a new station either at the current station's site or where Parc Tawe shopping center currently is.

After that, depending on options, it would then either reconnect to the existing tracks towards Landore or under High Street and Carmarthen Road to a new junction with the Main line.

Such a station could allow a Spiral-like commuter service of Camarthen>Llanelli>Swansea District Line>Swansea Main Station> Llansamlet>Neath>Briton Ferry> Port Talbot Parkway.

View attachment 182025

If money was no object, this would be a lovely solution.

Unfortunately, money is an object in all railway discussions. Heavy rail isn't well laid out in Swansea but would never justify the cost of a huge tunneling/demolition project. Instead I'd have a light rail line from Gorseinon to Neath/Glynneath via the Docks (converting the VON leaving a freight connection to Briton ferry, and another from Mumbles to Clydach, fomring an X networking intesecting at Swansea (High St) station.

 

[Topological]

If money was no object, this would be a lovely solution.

Unfortunately, money is an object in all railway discussions. Heavy rail isn't well laid out in Swansea but would never justify the cost of a huge tunneling/demolition project. Instead I'd have a light rail line from Gorseinon to Neath/Glynneath via the Docks (converting the VON leaving a freight connection to Briton ferry, and another from Mumbles to Clydach, fomring an X networking intesecting at Swansea (High St) station.

Light rail may allow the opportunity to cross Fabian Way and go into the Bay Campus (there is land on the edge between Fabian Way and the University buildings that could have a station). Staying on that side would pick up the old alignment without any demolition being required (would need an at grade crossing of the dock access road). I am not sure how the Mumbles side is working, but you have the option there for Campus to Campus services for students too.

 

[zwk500]

Light rail may allow the opportunity to cross Fabian Way and go into the Bay Campus (there is land on the edge between Fabian Way and the University buildings that could have a station). Staying on that side would pick up the old alignment without any demolition being required (would need an at grade crossing of the dock access road). I am not sure how the Mumbles side is working, but you have the option there for Campus to Campus services for students too.

I have no specific location knowledge so I'm not able to suggest the feasibility of any specific route, but the concept would by to have a generally North-South line from the Mumbles/Oystermouth area along the bay and then up to the northern suburbs that cannot have a reasonable heavy rail service, and an East-West line connecting the outer suburbs/satellite towns stuck between the heavy rail lines and then taking over underused heavy rail infrastructure to allow the connection to Neath.

The Swansea District line would remain available as a freight bypass of Swansea-Neath, but the west-south chord to the docks would likely go and only the connection to/from Briton ferry retained for potential future docks or distribution centre traffic

 

[Topological]

I have no specific location knowledge so I'm not able to suggest the feasibility of any specific route, but the concept would by to have a generally North-South line from the Mumbles/Oystermouth area along the bay and then up to the northern suburbs that cannot have a reasonable heavy rail service, and an East-West line connecting the outer suburbs/satellite towns stuck between the heavy rail lines and then taking over underused heavy rail infrastructure to allow the connection to Neath.

The Swansea District line would remain available as a freight bypass of Swansea-Neath, but the west-south chord to the docks would likely go and only the connection to/from Briton ferry retained for potential future docks or distribution centre traffic

The old line to Mumbles ran along the coast (and hence past the Singleton Campus of Swansea University). Most of the route is used as a cycle path though. I suspect that you would not get a line there now. A compromise of the Singleton Hospital / University as the terminus.

The other axes do not have old railway lines, but there is a dual carriageway with sufficient land on what would likely be the Gorseinon route is there.

The final arm is a bit more of a challenge to fit in. The best route may be to pass the Swansea Stadium and head up the valley there.

All services could share a section between the retail park and Swansea High Street station as that is where the big climb would likely be.

 

[quantinghome]

Seems like a solution in search of a problem. Doesn't look like the lines are capacity-constrained. There are likely hundreds of rail improvement projects which would come ahead of this in priority.

 

[Topological]

I think that a better solution would be to create a new Swansea Parkway Station on the District Line - near Llansamlet - to take all Intercity services currently serving Swansea High Street. This would also serve as terminus for all Heart of Wales services and West Wales services.

Intercity trains would only stop at Llanelli-Swansea Parkway-Port Talbot

At the same time I would create a local network of tram-trains:

Port Talbot- Neath-Swansea High Street (the existing Intercity route plus Swanline stations)
Llanelli - Cocket - Swansea High Street - Swansea Docks - Llandarcy - Neath
Mumbles - Swansea High Street - Landore- Swansea Parkway -Pontardawe

(Selects a pitchfork)

I note that the suggestions I made also echo these.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2025 ==

Seems like a solution in search of a problem. Doesn't look like the lines are capacity-constrained. There are likely hundreds of rail improvement projects which would come ahead of this in priority.

I would agree on the most part.

The issue with Swansea is more that there are areas which are far from rail provision. There are also all the old lines that just cry out for crayoning.

Another alternative is just build a depot for 197s on the Swansea Burrows yard and increase capacity that way.

 

[Smwrff]

Getting my crayons out - there are a number of routes which could be developed - with different alternatives how to join them up:
1. INTERCITY: Port Talbot - Swansea Parkway (at Ynysforgan) - Llanelli
2. SWANSEA BAY LINE: Llanelli-Gowerton-Cocket(new) - Landore(new)-Swansea Vale(new) - Llansamlet - Skewen-Neath-Briton Ferry-Baglan-Port Talbot
2. MUMBLES TRAM :Mumbles-Singleton-St Helens-Marina-High Street - Landore -
3. SWANSEA VALLEY TRAM: Swansea High Street - Landore - Swansea Vale South - Swansea Vale North - Parkway (at Ynysforgan) - Clydach - Pontardawe
4. SWANSEA MARINE TRAM: Swansea High Street - Tawe Barrage - Swansea Docks - Jersey Marine - Llansamlet - Neath

Although Swansea High Street and Neath would lose their direct intercity connections, both locations would be well connectd to either Swansea Parkway or Port Talbot and this would improve overall connectivity across Swansea Bay...

 

[popeter45]

Getting my crayons out - there are a number of routes which could be developed - with different alternatives how to join them up:
1. INTERCITY: Port Talbot - Swansea Parkway (at Ynysforgan) - Llanelli
2. SWANSEA BAY LINE: Llanelli-Gowerton-Cocket(new) - Landore(new)-Swansea Vale(new) - Llansamlet - Skewen-Neath-Briton Ferry-Baglan-Port Talbot
2. MUMBLES TRAM :Mumbles-Singleton-St Helens-Marina-High Street - Landore -
3. SWANSEA VALLEY TRAM: Swansea High Street - Landore - Swansea Vale South - Swansea Vale North - Parkway (at Ynysforgan) - Clydach - Pontardawe
4. SWANSEA MARINE TRAM: Swansea High Street - Tawe Barrage - Swansea Docks - Jersey Marine - Llansamlet - Neath

Although Swansea High Street and Neath would lose their direct intercity connections, both locations would be well connectd to either Swansea Parkway or Port Talbot and this would improve overall connectivity across Swansea Bay...

I think that a better solution would be to create a new Swansea Parkway Station on the District Line - near Llansamlet - to take all Intercity services currently serving Swansea High Street. This would also serve as terminus for all Heart of Wales services and West Wales services.

Intercity trains would only stop at Llanelli-Swansea Parkway-Port Talbot

At the same time I would create a local network of tram-trains:

Port Talbot- Neath-Swansea High Street (the existing Intercity route plus Swanline stations)
Llanelli - Cocket - Swansea High Street - Swansea Docks - Llandarcy - Neath
Mumbles - Swansea High Street - Landore- Swansea Parkway -Pontardawe

(Selects a pitchfork)

i feel both of these do the opposite of what im suggesting, the aim is to make it easier and quicker to reach Swansea, not slower with more connections that these two suggestions of a parkway do.
its almost like suggesting closing temple meads in bristol and making everybody for bristol change at its parkway

Seems like a solution in search of a problem. Doesn't look like the lines are capacity-constrained. There are likely hundreds of rail improvement projects which would come ahead of this in priority.

the main issue im trying to solve here is less capacity and more how to bypass the slow curve at Neath to enable quicker joruneys from West Wales to Cardiff and England

 

[stuu]

the main issue im trying to solve here is less capacity and more how to bypass the slow curve at Neath to enable quicker joruneys from West Wales to Cardiff and England

Doesn't everything stop at Neath anyway? In which case the curved approach is going to be pretty marginal in terms of time lost

 

[popeter45]

Doesn't everything stop at Neath anyway? In which case the curved approach is going to be pretty marginal in terms of time lost

my point is to bypass Neath via this new route when approaching from the East while still serving it with Swanline as well as this new Local Service formed via the new Spiral

 

[NCT]

Is there enough demand in that part of the world for separate Neath stopping and Neath avoiding trains?

 

[aar0]

Given the way Swansea developed and the way the railways in Swansea developed, could the station have been a through station from the start?

It sort of was I believe, my railway clearing house map shows a through line, the route of which can be seen on satellite by platform 4. Trams continued past it.

I think that a better solution would be to create a new Swansea Parkway Station on the District Line - near Llansamlet - to take all Intercity services currently serving Swansea High Street. This would also serve as terminus for all Heart of Wales services and West Wales services.

Intercity trains would only stop at Llanelli-Swansea Parkway-Port Talbot

Improving my Cardiff or London commute by adding a change or just an extra 30 minutes? Dim Diolch. As a regular on the line the GWR services pick up most at Bridgend and Swansea, Neath has very few commuters

 

[zwk500]

i feel both of these do the opposite of what im suggesting, the aim is to make it easier and quicker to reach Swansea, not slower with more connections that these two suggestions of a parkway do.
its almost like suggesting closing temple meads in bristol and making everybody for bristol change at its parkway

To be clear, the mainline connections to Swansea in my proposal would remain as is. The journeys would be sped up a bit by completing the mainline electrification but that's sort of separate.

Apologies for having dragged the thread slightly off-topic with talk of tram/light rail.

the main issue im trying to solve here is less capacity and more how to bypass the slow curve at Neath to enable quicker joruneys from West Wales to Cardiff and England

If the goal is simply to cut off the curve, would a chord between the Swansea District Line and the SWML near J44 of the M4 not be far more practical?

 

[Topological]

To be clear, the mainline connections to Swansea in my proposal would remain as is. The journeys would be sped up a bit by completing the mainline electrification but that's sort of separate.

Apologies for having dragged the thread slightly off-topic with talk of tram/light rail.

If the goal is simply to cut off the curve, would a chord between the Swansea District Line and the SWML near J44 of the M4 not be far more practical?

The lines do get very close near Junction 44. There is a section where the routes are parallel. However, there is a height difference and the Swansea District Line goes into a tunnel East of J44.

It looks possible to add a chord, but what the time savings would be from missing Neath I am not sure.

The Baglan to Swansea Burrows chord takes off a lot more distance (but is more expensive) if that is the objective.

 

[MarkyT]

I'm against diverting express service away from Neath. While serving it adds time to get to Swansea over a notional more direct route, it's important to consider convenience and custom. Neath is an exceptionally well-sited station with the town centre on one side and a large car park on the other. It comfortably beats Port Talbot in passenger numbers and is has over a third of Swansea's total. The station is only a short way from the A465 junction for the town and cars coming that way can reach the parking lot without going through the centre. They also avoid the often busy M4, which they'd have to join to get to the next station Port Talbot, a further 7 miles away, if Neath lost its express calls. The town's bus station, with numerous local routes, is located within 300m of the station, adjacent to Victoria Gardens. Neath's passenger figures were 0.778 million in 2023/24, compared to Port Talbot's 0.539 million and Swansea's 2.186 million. I'd say the cluster of three stations at the line's extremity in the greater Swansea area is far more useful than only one or two with a slightly shorter journey time to Cardiff. Swansea, as a terminus, is also a good place to detach a 5-car unit from the rear of a London train to reverse for Carmarthen and beyond.

 

[Smwrff]

I believe that at least half of Neath passengers are from Northern Swansea - who find it easier to travel there than in to Central Swansea.

 

[MarkyT]

I believe that at least half of Neath passengers are from Northern Swansea - who find it easier to travel there than in to Central Swansea.

If they're forced to go into Swansea by bus or car instead, meaning a longer and less reliable journey time overall, then the shortening of the train segment of the journey won't be a benefit to them and some may abandon rail entirely.

 

[Smwrff]

If they're forced to go into Swansea by bus or car instead, meaning a longer and less reliable journey time overall, then the shortening of the train segment of the journey won't be a benefit to them and some may abandon rail entirely.

I meant that replacing Neath with a Swansea Parkway station would actually benefit more than it would disadvantage..