Could Swansea benefit from a Stuttgart 21 style rebuild?

[popeter45]

I meant that replacing Neath with a Swansea Parkway station would actually benefit more than it would disadvantage..

this feels totally backways, disadvantaging away from a larger station to advantage a way smaller commuter base, especially when swanline would continue to enable Neath-Port Talbot-further services

 

[Smwrff]

Ok - disregard my 'nuclear' option of completely replacing SHS & Neath with a new Parkway station - and consider a partial replacement only - say a 2 hourly service only from Carmarthen bypassing SHS using Swansea District Line. This would be in conjunction with enhanced Swansea Bay Metro services - Initially increased 'Swanline' services but then additional trams similar to my earlier post.

The existing Swanline services have had a very limited take up due to their poor frequency. A minimum hourly and preferably 2tph would be needed to attract passengers to a full stopping service between Llanelli and Port Talbot (or Bridgend).

 

[zwk500]

Ok - disregard my 'nuclear' option of completely replacing SHS & Neath with a new Parkway station - and consider a partial replacement only - say a 2 hourly service only from Carmarthen bypassing SHS using Swansea District Line. This would be in conjunction with enhanced Swansea Bay Metro services - Initially increased 'Swanline' services but then additional trams similar to my earlier post.

Missing out the key traffic generator in the region has an abysmal impact on the financials of the service. Also IETs are limited to 5 cars beyond Swansea, so the set needs to be split somewhere (or 5 cars run through to Paddington, but that's also very silly) and it may as well be at a terminus and at the biggest destination/journey generator on the line.

The existing Swanline services have had a very limited take up due to their poor frequency. A minimum hourly and preferably 2tph would be needed to attract passengers to a full stopping service between Llanelli and Port Talbot (or Bridgend).

To increase the frequency of Swanline services you need more track capacity approximately halfway between Cardiff and Swansea to allow them to be overtaken. I agree that 2tph local service is needed for Cardiff-Swansea.

 

[anthony263]

Missing out the key traffic generator in the region has an abysmal impact on the financials of the service. Also IETs are limited to 5 cars beyond Swansea, so the set needs to be split somewhere (or 5 cars run through to Paddington, but that's also very silly) and it may as well be at a terminus and at the biggest destination/journey generator on the line.

To increase the frequency of Swanline services you need more track capacity approximately halfway between Cardiff and Swansea to allow them to be overtaken. I agree that 2tph local service is needed for Cardiff-Swansea.

Swanline was supposed to be half hourly when.originally proposed.

Problem is capacity between Bridgend and Cardiff Central

 

[MarkyT]

Swanline was supposed to be half hourly when.originally proposed.

Problem is capacity between Bridgend and Cardiff Central

A better result for west Wales as a whole would be a new fast pair of tracks between Cardiff and Bridgend, perhaps following the M4 for much of the way (shown aqua blue below). At ~13 miles, it could be ~2 miles shorter than the existing route (orange), and faster with gentler curves. With stoppers staying on the existing line, the scheme could dramatically improve capacity flexibility and resilience along the section for expresses, locals, and freight, and allow additional local stations on the old route.

 

[Smwrff]

As much as I would like to see a new alignment between Cardiff & Bridgend I doubt if it could be finiancially justified. Maybe 4 tracking some (if not all) of the line could be feasible??

I understand that one of the biggest bottlenecks is at Llanharan. What is stopping this from being resolved?

 

[NCT]

You don't need 4-tracking for a 2+2+F (2 fast + 2 stopping per hour plus some freight) timetable. I highly doubt Swansea and West Wales has the traffic volume to justify a brand new railway for a bit of extra speed where there is no capacity imperative. (The only capacity constraint is Cardiff itself where interventions are likely justifieid)

 

[popeter45]

rebuilding Bridgend to become a 4 through platform station to enable passing is probably the cheaper soution compared to quad tracking or a entire new 3rd route

 

[zwk500]

A better result for west Wales as a whole would be a new fast pair of tracks between Cardiff and Bridgend, perhaps following the M4 for much of the way (shown aqua blue below). At ~13 miles, it could be ~2 miles shorter than the existing route (orange), and faster with gentler curves. With stoppers staying on the existing line, the scheme could dramatically improve capacity flexibility and resilience along the section for expresses, locals, and freight, and allow additional local stations on the old route.

I wonder what the comparative costs and Benefits are of that new alignment vs 4-tracking from Pontyclun to Pencoed

 

[Topological]

Just being able to overtake Swanline/Maesteg trains between Bridgend and Cardiff would help. I am sure there is a solution that can be built much cheaper than a new alignment.

Electrification may help with stopper acceleration, but some chance to overtake would be better.

 

[MarkyT]

Maybe 4 tracking some (if not all) of the line could be feasible??

I wonder what the comparative costs and Benefits are of that new alignment vs 4-tracking from Pontyclun to Pencoed

Widening an existing route is often very expensive and disruptive during construction. Some places along the route might be easy, but stations are usually in built-up areas and they are often the most complex areas to address with housing and other buildings close to the track, more roads and bridges to modify etc. The stations themselves would need complete reconstruction too.

Here's a shorter version of the new route, ~8 miles long, just bypassing the three existing local stations. The route would face problems around Llanharry as this appears to be the motorway's summit and the road climbs steeply from both west and east to pass the town at quite a high level, so a tunnel might be necessary for ~2km in that vicinity.

Just being able to overtake Swanline/Maesteg trains between Bridgend and Cardiff would help. I am sure there is a solution that can be built much cheaper than a new alignment.

Electrification may help with stopper acceleration, but some chance to overtake would be better.

Slow/relief lines with platforms for local trains really need to encompass at least two stations in sequence for overtaking manoeuvre timings to work, A short platform loop just for one station always results in a long dwell for the local train waiting for an express to pass, often around 5 minutes.

Electrification and ETCS should help to an extent, though they can't fundamentally change the limitations of mixed stopping pattern service.

 

[Smwrff]

rebuilding Bridgend to become a 4 through platform station to enable passing is probably the cheaper soution compared to quad tracking or a entire new 3rd route

There might be room to do this to the west but things are a bit more restrictive at east end of station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2025 ==

Maybe quadtracking from St Fagans (to enable a new station) to Pontyclun would work - which would also enable a new station at Miskin/J34.

This is mostly rural area so few constraints.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good to see some debate on the Swansea Bay area. A few comments -

Swansea's rail development was basically geared at serving the various export trades (not all coal) ,and despite early (1851 or so) services to Bristol and London (the long way around) , local passenger services were an add-on to the core business. Worth noting though that up to 1920 , the Brynamman passenger service via the Swansea Vale line exceeded the Midland's suburban service into St Pancras and Moorgate ! - cross Swansea Tram services did quite well until it was culled in 1931 or so.

The GWR did 2 exceptionally bad rail expansion schemes at the turn of the last century - Fishguard Harbour plus the Swansea District line for transatlantic services which never happened , plus a real fall in Irish traffic from the 1920's onwards. The other was the Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen to Felin Fran link which would have fed Amman Valley coal (and a planned passenger service !) , via Pontardawe - a fair bit was constructed and never used. After this - the GWR backed off any major spend (though Swansea High St got a decent rebuild in the inter war years !)

The catchment area of present day Neath would appear to be into the Swansea Valley and beyond (used to do it myself) , helped by decent roads and of course the massive road enhancements from the 1960's onwards. The station though , is far from being a showpiece as it was rebuilt at a not very good time for such things.

So yes - crayons welcome - especially for light rail - but be mindful there is basically no money around. Lots of options and if anything potential for rail passenger growth.

 

[anthony263]

Build miskin/Cardiff West parkway plus a eastbound loop at remains again on a new brackla station would be a great help

 

[Topological]

Would it be worthwhile including extension of Neath platforms to accommodate 10-car IETs? I think it is just the Swansea bound platform which can at the moment.

Also a passing place for Swanline would help at the Swansea end too. I have seen many a GWR crawling behind the Swanline from Port Talbot.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Build miskin/Cardiff West parkway plus a eastbound loop at remains again on a new brackla station would be a great help

Good lord! I'd forgotten all about Brackla Station! How long has that saga been dragging on for?

A lot of the problems mentioned here derive from decades on under-investment in the SWML and Welsh railways in general. This has been true both under BR and since privatisation.

Without getting too political, if you have 5% of the population, 11% of the network and receive <1% of the capital investment for decade after decade, this is where you end up.

 

[anthony263]

Good lord! I'd forgotten all about Brackla Station! How long has that saga been dragging on for?

A lot of the problems mentioned here derive from decades on under-investment in the SWML and Welsh railways in general. This has been true both under BR and since privatisation.

Without getting too political, if you have 5% of the population, 11% of the network and receive <1% of the capital investment for decade after decade, this is where you end up.

Brackla station gotta be over 20 years now. Car park even been built

 

[Caaardiff]

Remember that any development of a Swansea Metro will need to be designed to primarily serve the whole area of Swansea/Swansea Valley and surrounding towns.

A lot of interesting suggestions, and a few more to throw into the mix:

Expand Port Talbot Parkway to 4 platforms
Expand Carmarthen to 3 platforms
Dual track or passing loops on the Maesteg line to enable the following:

Paddington – Swansea/Carmarthen (GWR hourly) via High St

Paddington – Carmarthen (As per proposed New Open Access operator) via Disctrict line

2 hourly Manchester – Carmarthen (5 car 197) – Splits at Port Talbot with 2 cars working to Carmarthen via the district line and 3 cars terminating Swansea or vice versa with attachment at Port Talbot towards Manchester

2 hourly Cardiff - Pembroke Dock/Carmarthen (4/5 car 197) calling Pontyclun, Llanharan & Pencoed - Split at Port Talbot with 3 cars to Pembroke Dock via district line and other 2 cars to Carmarthen via Swansea High St stopping at Swanline stations. This will run in the opposite times to above Manchester services and connect into TFW Mk4 services. This would improve journey times to the more popular part of West Wales.

2 hourly Swansea High St – Milford Haven

2 hourly Swansea High St – Fishguard Harbour (Opposite hour to Milford Haven)


New hourly Carmarthen – Maesteg all stops service working Carmarthen - Llanelli – Swansea High St – Swanline stations – Bridgend – Maesteg. This would be split as one hourly train main stations only Swansea - Bridgend, then other hourly train calling Swanline stations as well (The opposite hourly to Cardiff - Pembroke Dock above)

Heart of Wales to route via Port Talbot off the district line towards Swansea instead of Llanelli due to more available platforms but also improved connections to the East.



This would mean services frequency of:

West Wales via Swansea High St – 2x TFW trains per hour + GWR

West Wales via District line - 2x TFW per hour to Cardiff & Manchester as well as the already proposed low frequency London open access service.



The reason I think Port Talbot should be developed is it’s in a good location geographically and is the last main station before the split to District Line and Swansea. There’s also plenty of surrounding land on the South side to develop more platforms and park & ride, as well as being well located near the M4 & A48. Although costly to develop Port Talbot, it would also make use of current track infrastructure meaning no major infrastructure changes required aside from the station itself.
Carmarthen is just about setup with 3 platforms anyway, and is becoming increasingly congested.
By providing a Maesteg-Bridgend-Swansea-Carmarthen service, this protects capacity between Bridgend and Cardiff, while maintaining an hourly Swanline service, or two hourly to Cardiff without having to change at Bridgend.

Also to develop the already proposed new stations along the district line and Cockett area.

 

[Zomboid]

There's not a huge amount of space around Portsmouth Talbot for expansion, but I think 4 platforms could be possible. If that results in extended dwells there whilst a fast train overtakes then that's probably a price worth paying to allow for a step change in frequency - and the interchange it might permit would mean that many journeys wouldn't necessarily have to be slower than today anyhow.

 

[Caaardiff]

Aside from a social club, there is plenty of scope on the South side by moving the current car park and realigning the road network. The North side might be a bit more tricky as the good line is right next to the road. It may be that 3 platforms rather than 4 might work. There's already 4 lines through the station but only 2 lines on platforms.
There's also space on the East end which has car parks either side where the old crossing used to be.

 

[Zomboid]

Aside from a social club, there is plenty of scope on the South side by moving the current car park and realigning the road network. The North side might be a bit more tricky as the good line is right next to the road. It may be that 3 platforms rather than 4 might work. There's already 4 lines through the station but only 2 lines on platforms.
There's also space on the East end which has car parks either side where the old crossing used to be.

A staggered platform on the North side where the car park is would probably be the most likely to fit approach.

 

[anthony263]

A staggered platform on the North side where the car park is would probably be the most likely to fit approach.

They should have built the 4 platforms when they rebuilt the station and remodelled the road outside.

As for a Swansea to Maesteg train thats definitely a great idea but they really should upgrade thw Margam to Tondu branch and reinstate the mainline connection to thw branch without having to go through Margam yard

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

As for a Swansea to Maesteg train thats definitely a great idea but they really should upgrade thw Margam to Tondu branch and reinstate the mainline connection to thw branch without having to go through Margam yard

I don't know what condition the Tondu to Margam line is in by now. I think it's technically open but would probably need a total rebuild to carry passenger traffic.

Still a bit like Aberdare - Hirwaun, if the formation's still there it makes things a hell of a lot easier.

 

[Zomboid]

From a "what rail infrastructure could we imagine" standpoint Swansea to Tondu looks good. Seems like 4 tracks between Port Talbot and Margam could be built largely within the existing railway land and there's even a bridge for a grade separated junction at Margam.

Only issues are whether anyone actually wants to use that kind of service and where the money might come from if they do.

 

[zwk500]

From a "what rail infrastructure could we imagine" standpoint Swansea to Tondu looks good. Seems like 4 tracks between Port Talbot and Margam could be built largely within the existing railway land and there's even a bridge for a grade separated junction at Margam.

Only issues are whether anyone actually wants to use that kind of service and where the money might come from if they do.

I don't know the area, but if running a local service to Tondu/Maesteg it would seem very advantageous to serve Pyle on the way. A new section of track from Pyle to the existing line east of the town would then allow the proper abandonment of the Ogmore Vale Section, shown below:

A new line will obviously be much more expensive than reconditioning an old line, whatever state it's in. However, by serving Pyle you add a quite considerable user base to the service, and you also skip out what looks to be the worst of the old alignment, so quite possibly still represents a neutral or positive impact on Tondu-Port Talbot journey times even with the extra stop.. Space exists to Grade-Separate if it's needed (and it should at least be reserved).

 

[MarkyT]

I don't know the area, but if running a local service to Tondu/Maesteg it would seem very advantageous to serve Pyle on the way. A new section of track from Pyle to the existing line east of the town would then allow the proper abandonment of the Ogmore Vale Section, shown below:
View attachment 182580
A new line will obviously be much more expensive than reconditioning an old line, whatever state it's in. However, by serving Pyle you add a quite considerable user base to the service, and you also skip out what looks to be the worst of the old alignment, so quite possibly still represents a neutral or positive impact on Tondu-Port Talbot journey times even with the extra stop.. Space exists to Grade-Separate if it's needed (and it should at least be reserved).

Or a new single platform station on the OVE to the north of the town in the Kenfig Hill area.

I thought maybe reconfigure the track layout for a reverse in the west bay at Bridgend, but for an attractive journey time Port-Talbot - Maesteg, that would be counterproductive as it's already a long way round via the OVE. I make it ~27km vs ~12km by road via Cwmafan and Brynn. There's the First Cymru X3 bus on that route, which calls at the bus station right outside Port Talbot rail and takes ~40 minutes. I think you'd struggle to do that by rail, especially with the slow running on the branch itself. A snag is the limited hours for the bus, starting early but finishing around tea time, mon-fri only, and poor 90 min frequency, being run by a single vehicle today. Some improvements to this service would likely be the best value. Two more vehicles might permit a 30min interval clockface service. While road traffic on this axis is likely not a problam at most times, the bus has tight 2 or 3 minute turnrounds at Maesteg, hence the 6 minutes delay here when I screenshotted the map. It had arrived 4 min late at Maesteg then picked up a further 2 min at the bus station. I don't think Tondu alone, as effectively a small suburb on the edge of Bridgend, deserves a direct service from Port Talbot any more than any other outer reach of that town.

The problem with the OVE is the junction faces the wrong way at Tondu (for good historic coal traffic reasons clearly), requiring a reverse for any main line diversions. If a new direct Bridgend - Margam chord was built at Tondu, then the OVE might have some greater benefit for relieving the mainline, with some freight regulalry routed that way for example to avoid busy times on the main.

 

[Smwrff]

I dont think there is any justification for trying to directly connect Maesteg to Port Talbot. There is already a connection via Bridgend