Could the Dalston East Curve ever be reinstated?

[Jorge Da Silva]

Hello, so I heard that the land which was once Dalston East Curve (closed in 1940) which links Dalston Junction with Hackney Central had been preserved when the East London Line was extended in case a need to reinstated in the future ever came about. Just wondering would it be worth putting a single track from Dalston Junction to Hackney Central and extending a few Dalston terminators to Stratford? I suspect the only reason why it has not been done is because of capacity issues on the NLL.

 

[Ken H]

Hello, so I heard that the land which was once Dalston East Curve (closed in 1940) which links Dalston Junction with Hackney Central had been preserved when the East London Line was extended in case a need to reinstated in the future ever came about. Just wondering would it be worth putting a single track from Dalston Junction to Hackney Central and extending a few Dalston terminators to Stratford? I suspect the only reason why it has not been done is because of capacity issues on the NLL.

Got a map Jorge?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Can't it won't let me

go to google maps and type in dalston east cuve garden and it should take you to it. It used to link Dalston Junction with Hackney Central and head towards Stratford.

 

[Ken H]

Can't it won't let me

go to google maps and type in dalston east cuve garden and it should take you to it. It used to link Dalston Junction with Hackney Central and head towards Stratford.

Use snipping tool


Think there is provision for this re-instatement

 

[swt_passenger]

The station box does include a blanked off spur towards the east curve, so it has been allowed for, civil engineering wise The question is whether there would ever be any point as it must affect capacity on the NLL, and would introduce yet more flat crossing conflicts.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The station box does include a blanked off spur towards the east curve, so it has been allowed for, civil engineering wise The question is whether there would ever be any point as it must affect capacity on the NLL, and would introduce yet more flat crossing conflicts.

I suspected that would be the case, however isn't the main reason for capacity issues on the ELL because freight uses the line as well.

 

[Ken H]

I suspected that would be the case, however isn't the main reason for capacity issues on the ELL because freight uses the line as well.

Think the buzzword is 'passive provision'

 

[Dr_Paul]

Think the buzzword is 'passive provision'

That's right: I've read somewhere that the east curve trackbed at Dalston has been kept 'just in case'. (My dad can remember the four-wheel carriages and ancient locomotives in the 1930s that still ran from Dalston Junction round to Poplar.) The same thing has happened at Twickenham, where there is space under the new station-building development to enable the bay line to become a through line if deemed necessary.

I guess that passive possession was in force with the Blackfriars to Farringdon Street trackbed after the through goods traffic from the Widened Lines over Blackfrairs Bridge ended.

I'm not sure whether passive possession was in force with the trackbed between Queens Road Peckham and Surrey Quays, but it is otherwise a wonder how it survived 100 years after closure without being built on.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That's right: I've read somewhere that the east curve trackbed at Dalston has been kept 'just in case'. (My dad can remember the four-wheel carriages and ancient locomotives in the 1930s that still ran from Dalston Junction round to Poplar.) The same thing has happened at Twickenham, where there is space under the new station-building development to enable the bay line to become a through line if deemed necessary.

I guess that passive possession was in force with the Blackfriars to Farringdon Street trackbed after the through goods traffic from the Widened Lines over Blackfrairs Bridge ended.

I'm not sure whether passive possession was in force with the trackbed between Queens Road Peckham and Surrey Quays, but it is otherwise a wonder how it survived 100 years after closure without being built on.

Queens Road Peckham and Surrey Quays section was closed to all traffic (goods) in 1964.

I suspect one day it may happen particularly if the ELL gets increased to 24tph and freight on the NLL (at some point) is diverted elsewhere maybe via the GOBLIN.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The simple answer is no. You might be able to do it with extremely intrusive engineering but for what purpose? Are people going to need to do journeys from the South of the River to the East using direct trains when a change at Whitechapel gets you the Elizabeth line to Stratford? How difficult is New Cross to Hackney with a change at Canonbury? Where are the paths to allow for such trains?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Queens Road Peckham and Surrey Quays section was closed to all traffic (goods) in 1964.

I think that this link was removed around 1910; it's missing on this map from 1916. Are you thinking of the line down to the riverside at Deptford? Where I was wrong was when I wrote that it wasn't built on: this postwar map shows that one of the stands for Millwall's 'Den' was built on a short length of the formation. Nonetheless, when the 'Den' was moved, the whole trackbed was again available, a pretty good survival record, and very handy for when the SLL was reconnected with the ELL after a century of separation.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think that this link was removed around 1910; it's missing on this map from 1916. Are you thinking of the line down to the riverside at Deptford? Where I was wrong was when I wrote that it wasn't built on: this postwar map shows that one of the stands for Millwall's 'Den' was built on a short length of the formation. Nonetheless, when the 'Den' was moved, the whole trackbed was again available, a pretty good survival record, and very handy for when the SLL was reconnected with the ELL after a century of separation.

Ah may well have been.

 

[Andrew S]

The layout of the station at Dalston Junction would make it difficult and complicated to run regular services round the curve. The spur to the reinstated curve would lead off the southbound platform line about a two thirds of the way along the platform, so a train heading north to use the curve would have to cross all four platform lines and occupy the southbound platform preventing a train approaching from Canonbury. The position of the potential junction to the curve might even mean a full length train wouldn't be able to stop in the platform.

 

[edwin_m]

The layout of the station at Dalston Junction would make it difficult and complicated to run regular services round the curve. The spur to the reinstated curve would lead off the southbound platform line about a two thirds of the way along the platform, so a train heading north to use the curve would have to cross all four platform lines and occupy the southbound platform preventing a train approaching from Canonbury. The position of the potential junction to the curve might even mean a full length train wouldn't be able to stop in the platform.

Is there space to build a terminating platform for the east curve, with no connection towards Shoreditch, so a short working could be run from there towards Stratford?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is there space to build a terminating platform for the east curve, with no connection towards Shoreditch, so a short working could be run from there towards Stratford?

even if there was that would make completely useless. a small platform maybe could be used as a Stratford-Crystal Palace or Clapham Junction service.

 

[edwin_m]

even if there was that would make completely useless. a small platform maybe could be used as a Stratford-Crystal Palace or Clapham Junction service.

I was thinking of a terminating platform for trains from the north or east. If as suggested the east curve couldn't ever be re-connected without making the platforms on the west curve useless, then why else go to the trouble of making any provision at all for reinstating the east curve?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I was thinking of a terminating platform for trains from the north or east. If as suggested the east curve couldn't ever be re-connected without making the platforms on the west curve useless, then why else go to the trouble of making any provision at all for reinstating the east curve?

Good question! Geoff Marshall’s Secrets of the Overground (I think) shows you where it comes out at Dalston

 

[sprunt]

Is the preserved land for the curve underground? Google's 3D view shows a Matalan car park at ground level, and no sign of any portal that a tunnel might emerge from.

 

[PeterC]

Is the preserved land for the curve underground? Google's 3D view shows a Matalan car park at ground level, and no sign of any portal that a tunnel might emerge from.

The route of the trackbed is all preserved from building but as well as the Eastern Curve Garden it would take out the Matalan car park and a service road. There is no tunnel to the trackbed from Dalston Junction, just provision to break through the station box, I assume that a new bridge and cutting under Dalston Lane would be required.

Given the capacity issues on the NLR the question is academic anyway

 

[JKF]

I thought some of the land protection here was in anticipation of CR2, not just for reinstatement of the curve? Are there any provisional plans for the layout of a CR2 station?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought some of the land protection here was in anticipation of CR2, not just for reinstatement of the curve? Are there any provisional plans for the layout of a CR2 station?

There’s a 3 page pdf on Crossrail 2 website. The layout is basically that it will all be underground, positioned roughly north/south, with the north and south entrances to the double ended station being collocated with the existing two stations. There doesn’t seem to be any worksite that impacts on the eastern curve position:
https://crossrail2.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Dalston.pdf
So one side effect is probably much better interchange between eastern NLL and the ELL anyway, making the necessity for an eastern curve even less likely...

 

[Wirewiper]

The only sensible use for a reinstated Dalston East Curve that I can see would be for future empty stock workings, if there was a change in stabling or maintenance arrangements.