Could the disused Longfield to Ebbsfleet chord be put to a new use?

[Metal_gee_man]

As far as I remember the piece of track is currently set up, and was originally set up to allow Eurostar trains to use the phase one of HS1 to be used upto Ebbsfleet (whilst the tunnels were being dug to Stratford and St Pancras) and then bring trains down to the Sole Street line through Bromley South into Waterloo via the Linford St Viaduct and the same in return. Now with the current damage to the tracks near Higham in mind how useful would it now be if Class 395s were diverted to just after Longfield Station and use the piece of track which is 80% OHLE and 20% 3rd Rail up to Ebbsfleet.

Yes I know the junction is only set to allow for movements from HS1 through to Farningham Road and onwards to Swanley and not eastbound towards Longfield and the Medway towns but there is the space to build the junctions which need to be added at Ebbsfleet and Longfield.

Does anyone know what uses the chord currently I'm guessing it's either freight or engineering trains.

It could allow for other pathings if used regularly, fully maintained and reintroduced for revenue traffic and hopefully help remove the bottle neck that is Strood to Gravesend line

Any thoughts

 

[JonathanH]

As far as I remember the piece of track is currently set up, and was originally set up to allow Eurostar trains to use the phase one of HS1 to be used upto Ebbsfleet (whilst the tunnels were being dug to Stratford and St Pancras) and then bring trains down to the Sole Street line through Bromley South into Waterloo via the Linford St Viaduct and the same in return. Now with the current damage to the tracks near Higham in mind how useful would it now be if Class 395s were diverted to just after Longfield Station and use the piece of track which is 80% OHLE and 20% 3rd Rail up to Ebbsfleet.
Yes I know the junction is only set to allow for movements not in this direction but there is the space to the junctions to be added at Ebbsfleet and Longfield using that piece of underutilised track but I'd guess that won't happen for this one time expensive 3 mile stretch.
It could allow for other pathings if used regularly and help remove the bottle neck that is Strood to Gravesend line

Any thoughts

What problem are you trying to solve here? It would take longer to reinstate this route than it will to repair damage to tracks near Higham and there isn't a lot of demand for travel between Ebbsfleet and Longfield.

A reversal at Longfield would add a long time to journeys, far more than any issue with 'bottlenecks' between Strood and Gravesend.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

What problem are you trying to solve here? It would take longer to reinstate this route than it will to repair damage to tracks near Higham and there isn't a lot of demand for travel between Ebbsfleet and Longfield.

A reversal at Longfield would add a long time to journeys, far more than any issue with 'bottlenecks' between Strood and Gravesend.

It's a capacity issue long-term, it would have been useful short term if it was set correctly to allow the circular 395 services to make it back onto HS1, it would be stupid for a reverse to happen.

In addition Farningham Road and Longfield fall into the council remit of Dartford and Gravesham and many of those people jump in cars to drive to work in those places. But that isn't the intention. Its to stop a minimum of 4tph running through Victorian tunnels in the Strood area and maybe diverting via the chord for faster services to stp

 

[Ianno87]

The only recent use of the route has been to store withdrawn Class 373 Eurostar sets.

Not an awful lot of use in the present set up. The approaches to Victoria prevent capacity being available for a service like Victoria-Bromley South-HS1-Ashford-Canterbury West (given that Bromley-SE Kent connectivity is relatively poor)

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The only recent use of the route has been to store withdrawn Class 373 Eurostar sets.

Not an awful lot of use in the present set up. The approaches to Victoria prevent capacity being available for a service like Victoria-Bromley South-HS1-Ashford-Canterbury West (given that Bromley-SE Kent connectivity is relatively poor)

They wouldn't want 395s in VIC or a slower OHLE Emu on HS1 as well as the problem of ECTS

 

[frediculous]

Long term you'd need to built a chord at Ebbsfleet that connects the spur towards Ebbsfleet (currently faces towards the coast). You'd also need some extra "slow" platforms and separated line as you don't want normal trains running on HS1 (for both speed and signalling reasons).

I presume old Eurostars aren't stored down there any more.

I'm sure there was mention of building this in one of Network Rail's Kent Route plans (as a far off possibility). In theory, the current Bromley South stoppers could be extended to serve St Mary Cray, Swanley and Ebbsfleet, or the planned Ashford Thameslink services diverted instead. This might happen in the next 30 years to support the large housing development at Ebbsfleet, but I doubt it.

 

[JonathanH]

But that isn't the intention. Its to stop a minimum of 4tph running through Victorian tunnels in the Strood area and maybe diverting via the chord for faster services to stp

And to miss out the key traffic objective of Gravesend? Why would you go as far west as Longfield to join the route to St Pancras - if there was any need to avoid the Strood to Ebbsfleet line you would need to build a new line, not use a line that goes in completely the wrong direction.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

And to miss out the key traffic objective of Gravesend? Why would you go as far west as Longfield to join the route to St Pancras - if there was any need to avoid the Strood to Ebbsfleet line you would need to build a new line, not use a line that goes in completely the wrong direction.

You'll be surprised that chord is only 3ish miles long, and tracks along the A2 and HS1 corridor better than the line from Strood upthrough Higham and Gravesend

 

[JonathanH]

You'll be surprised that chord is only 3ish miles long, and tracks along the A2 and HS1 corridor better than the line from Strood upthrough Higham and Gravesend

It is, but looking at a map, you would need two new chords to be built and unless you are going to have a really tight one at Longfield, you aren't going to use all of those three miles. You would also need quite a substantial grade separated junction at the Ebbsfleet end that would be about 1 mile in length and need to get over or under the A2. It isn't a cheap quick fix.

It wouldn't be quicker either - remember that just as the route from Strood to Rochester isn't quick, neither is the main line between Sole Street and Rochester particularly quick.

Ebbsfleet to Rochester takes about 19 or 20 minutes
Fawkham Juncion to Rochester fast takes 12 minutes and 17 minutes with stops

There really isn't much journey time saving if any so what justifies the construction work that would be needed?

 

[MotCO]

Could the lines be used for sidings to help alleviate the shortage of stabling yards in Kent?

 

[30907]

Could the lines be used for sidings to help alleviate the shortage of stabling yards in Kent?

Theoretically, but the long thin layout would be inconvenient and difficult to keep secure, and traincrew would have problems accessing it.
The only possible use I can see for the line is a Southfleet Parkway accessed from New Barn Road for a fast Victoria-Bromley S-Southfleet commuter service. But the journey time would be over 30 minutes so it wouldn't be competitive with Ebbsfleet for most central London destinations. And there's the question of paths into London, though it's not quite as congested as when ES went that way.

 

[JonathanH]

The only possible use I can see for the line is a Southfleet Parkway accessed from New Barn Road for a fast Victoria-Bromley S-Southfleet commuter service. But the journey time would be over 30 minutes so it wouldn't be competitive with Ebbsfleet for most central London destinations. And there's the question of paths into London, though it's not quite as congested as when ES went that way.

Victoria to Bromley South is equally as congested as when Eurostar ran because there is now a stopping train every 15 minutes on both the route via Herne Hill and the Catford Loop. There is no room for an extra fast service over this route.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Victoria to Bromley South is equally as congested as when Eurostar ran because there is now a stopping train every 15 minutes on both the route via Herne Hill and the Catford Loop. There is no room for an extra fast service over this route.

The 4tph could be maintained with 2tph to Orpington and 2tph to Southfleet or Ebbsfleet if they wanted to instead of stopping 2tph at Bromley but it's of minimal benefit, and will probably need another diagram of stock to be able to get to Southfleet and turn round so probably not

 

[Dr Hoo]

To clarify then, the OP's original suggestion is to divert the 'highspeed' Class 395 services through the 'main' HS1 platforms at Ebbsfleet, then via two new chords and a tiny proportion of the disused link line in between? The trains would then presumably run non-stop via Sole Street to Rochester Bridge Junction and miss out Gravesend and Strood entirely?
I am having difficulty in seeing the benefit here. To what extent does Gravesend-Strood even need 'de-bottlenecking'?

 

[backontrack]

Interestingly, a route via HS1, Southfleet and Swanley to Herne Hill, then via either Thameslink and Finsbury Park or Brixton, Wandsworth, Battersea and Kensington Olympia, seems to be the only way you can get directly from the Channel Tunnel to the WCML and ECML...

Make of that what you will.

 

[JonathanH]

Interestingly, a route via HS1, Southfleet and Swanley to Herne Hill, then via either Thameslink and Finsbury Park or Brixton, Wandsworth, Battersea and Kensington Olympia, seems to be the only way you can get directly from the Channel Tunnel to the WCML and ECML...

Make of that what you will.

That's not true. Given the connection at Fawkham Junction is severed, how do you think Channel Tunnel freight gets from the Channel Tunnel to the WCML? There is a connection at Dollands Moor to the national network eg as used by this which is a path for Wembley https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H48270/2020-04-15/detailed

There are also exchange sidings at Ripple Lane.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H44990/2020-04-15/detailed which allow connection to the WCML or ECML via the North London Line.

 

[backontrack]

That's not true. Given the connection at Fawkham Junction is severed, how do you think Channel Tunnel freight gets from the Channel Tunnel to the WCML? There is a connection at Dollands Moor to the national network eg as used by this which is a path for Wembley https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H48270/2020-04-15/detailed

Oh god, I forgot all about the Redhill route!

 

[JonathanH]

Oh god, I forgot all about the Redhill route!

I think more of the freight actually uses the line via Maidstone East rather than Redhill - eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45822/2020-04-16/detailed

Anyway, the point is that the lack of a route via Fawkham Junction doesn't really affect anything.

 

[MarkyT]

I think more of the freight actually uses the line via Maidstone East rather than Redhill - eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45822/2020-04-16/detailed

Anyway, the point is that the lack of a route via Fawkham Junction doesn't really affect anything.

Class 92 electric haulage is still not allowed via Redhill AFAIK, so freights going that way must be diesel hauled instead and, while there are regularly scheduled examples running that way, they are rare compared to the Maidstone East route. It is all to do with track circuit compatibility on the Brighton Main Line, which could be addressed, but it's simply not worth replacing the many hundreds of TCs involved for the small amount of traffic, especially now the signalling is getting rather long in the tooth. One day it will be all resignalled with axle counters, but by then there might not be any 92s still around!

 

[Tio Terry]

The electrification and earthing arrangements at Fawkham Junction are, shall we say, unique and would probably need to be reviewed and changed if they were to be in daily use for a regular service using both 25KV OHEL and 750V DC third rail.

 

[MarkyT]

Got my Easter crayons out... Some Chatham trains could thus be rerouted via Gravesend, also calling at some new high-level platforms at Ebbsfleet. Would have to be 3rd rail electrified throughout, so someone would have to make the argument to the ORR... I've probably crayoned right through some brand new executive housing estate that has sprung up overnight too!

 

[JonathanH]

Got my Easter crayons out... Some Chatham trains could thus be rerouted via Gravesend, also calling at some new high-level platforms at Ebbsfleet. Would have to be 3rd rail electrified throughout, so someone would have to make the argument to the ORR... I've probably crayoned right through some brand new executive housing estate that has sprung up overnight too!

Is an interchange at Ebbsfleet important in this? Why wouldn't you just use the old alignment to reach Gravesend directly (apart from the fact that the A226 is built on it where the junction would need to be)?

 

[MarkyT]

Is an interchange at Ebbsfleet important in this? Why wouldn't you just use the old alignment to reach Gravesend directly (apart from the fact that the A226 is built on it where the junction would need to be)?

Well, avoiding development was my main objective here, and I think a junction to the SE would be very difficult at the old bridge intersection too. Going via Ebbsfleet gets you a grade separated junction to the SE and then platforms just seemed like a 'no brainer' (horrible expression). If the trains going this way were Chatham stoppers, they could provide a 'distributor' for high speed east Kent services to a broad swathe of south London and potentially for international services too if more were to stop at Ebbsfleet. Needs some detailed business case work clearly! Could be a useful diversionary for Chatham main line for when Sole Street line closed. Hey, just thinking outside the (crayon) box here. We are in speculative after all!