Could the Glasgow Subway system be expanded?

[Falcon1200]

Glasgow underground should give serious consideration to expanding above ground to either on central reservations or elevated railway as digging is too expensive.

mods note - split from this thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-subway-new-driverless-trains.210196/

No thanks ! The Glasgow Underground is a simple system completely incompatible with all other rail infrastructure in the area, any extension of rail-based transport in Glasgow should be standard gauge tram and/or tram/train based, where suitable and justifiable. And if Edinburgh can justify trams.......

 

[Bald Rick]

Glasgow underground should give serious consideration to expanding above ground to either on central reservations or elevated railway as digging is too expensive.

Which central reservations would those be?

 

[Vespa]

Which central reservations would those be?

Former Glasgow tram central reservations with OLE otherwise elevated railway using RSJ beams like Chicago and New York elevated railway.

Not all of London and Merseyrail is underground, some are surface or above ground rail, such as DLR or part of Merseyrail Northern line.

Do you have a better plan ?

 

[Scotrail314209]

Former Glasgow tram central reservations with OLE otherwise elevated railway using RSJ beams like Chicago and New York elevated railway.

Not all of London and Merseyrail is underground, some are surface or above ground rail, such as DLR or part of Merseyrail Northern line.

Do you have a better plan ?

I think if there is any expansion they should look to be elevated. But that might make the City Centre look particularly depressing if there are big elevated pillars and track between the buildings.

 

[Falcon1200]

Former Glasgow tram central reservations with OLE otherwise elevated railway using RSJ beams like Chicago and New York elevated railway.

How would Subway trains get to these central reservations and elevated structures given that their current, circular, self contained, 4' gauge railway is, obviously, underground, without hugely expensive work ? Much simpler to just build a standard gauge tram system.

 

[Vespa]

I think if there is any expansion they should look to be elevated. But that might make the City Centre look particularly depressing if there are big elevated pillars and track between the buildings.

The underground can stay where it is, it's about going from underground to above ground on an elevated or surface line using old or new alignments to the suburbs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have a better plan ?

plan to satisfy what objective?

Former Glasgow tram central reservations with OLE

where are these, and what are they now?

 

[Vespa]

plan to satisfy what objective?


where are these, and what are they now?

You don't have to show any enthusiasm or proactivity.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Well some expansion means it can maybe go to the north of the City which currently has barely any train service compared to the South Side.

 

[liam456]

You don't have to show any enthusiasm or proactivity.

A plan which is realistic in any way, shape or form I would think is better than "enthusiasm or proactivity"

I live very near to an example of these post-tramway almost 30m wide roads in Glasgow, and trust me, there's no space for an elevated railway plan of any kind.

A bus network more similar to Lothian Buses I think would be far more useful, a bit like the SNP made noise about until they suddenly gained the powers to legislate for it then forgot all about it.....

 

[Vespa]

A plan which is realistic in any way, shape or form I would think is better than "enthusiasm or proactivity"

I live very near to an example of these post-tramway almost 30m wide roads in Glasgow, and trust me, there's no space for an elevated railway plan of any kind.

A bus network more similar to Lothian Buses I think would be far more useful, a bit like the SNP made noise about until they suddenly gained the powers to legislate for it then forgot all about it.....

I would prefer somebody from Glasgow who knows the city being able to tell me the viability of the idea and perhap make suggestions to me than somebody who is just being a contrarian for the sake of it.

The point is I'm trying to proactively look at ways to expand the subway which hasn't expanded since construction, problem with that is above ground things change, areas move on, I have noticed some stations are in city centres which is useful, other station feels too far from attractions as the area has changed in the years since construction, to remain relevant some expansion or tram connection is needed, you still have a legacy 4ft gauge to consider.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well some expansion means it can maybe go to the north of the City

Being facetious, I'm not sure how you can expand a circle, other than by increasing its diameter !

I would prefer somebody from Glasgow who knows the city being able to tell me the viability of the idea

I live near Glasgow and while the Subway performs a useful service as it is now, I simply cannot see how expanding/extending it would be the best way to improve public transport, for a number of reasons;

It is a simple circular route, any extension would mean breaking into that, creating junctions, and destroying the existing service pattern.
Whether extended under, on, or above ground, extensive tunnelling would be required to break out from the circle.
It is 4' gauge and cannot therefore take over or share infrastructure with existing rail routes.
The trains are tiny ! Maximum 3 coaches, and thanks to the gauge, even more constrained inside than London Tube stock.

If a viable route for a new rail-based transport system can be identified, IMHO a far easier, cheaper and generally better solution would be trams, running on dedicated infrastructure where possible but penetrating the city centre with on-street running at ground level, Manchester being the example of how it could be done.

 

[Ex-controller]

The subway can expand without physically being part of the same infrastructure. This is what the proposed Glasgow Metro does, and whilst it still sounds like pie in the sky until the first sod is cut - we know how far the Airport Link plan got before being shelved - would be a worthwhile addition.

Plenty of the lines on London Underground, Paris Metro do not physically connect, why would an expanded Glasgow subway need to do it?

There actually were brief plans on the 1970s to expand using disused tunnels in the west end but I’d imagine it would have been deemed too costly.

 

[Vespa]

The subway can expand without physically being part of the same infrastructure. This is what the proposed Glasgow Metro does, and whilst it still sounds like pie in the sky until the first sod is cut - we know how far the Airport Link plan got before being shelved - would be a worthwhile addition.

Plenty of the lines on London Underground, Paris Metro do not physically connect, why would an expanded Glasgow subway need to do it?

There actually were brief plans on the 1970s to expand using disused tunnels in the west end but I’d imagine it would have been deemed too costly.

A separate line interchanging with the circle stations without conflicting is a worthwhile consideration following the population, industry & attractions, constructed in standard gauge seems to be the way forward or a tram subway with the surface running just like Boston streetcar system.

 

[InOban]

The problem in Glasgow is that (inevitably ) the 19th century railway lines do not serve the late 20th century housing 'schemes', as we call them. That is what plans for a Glasgow metro are focussed on. I can forsee no structural integration with the existing subway

 

[Falcon1200]

The subway can expand without physically being part of the same infrastructure.

In which case we're no longer discussing extending or expanding the existing Subway, but instead building a completely new, separate system !

 

[Vespa]

In which case we're no longer discussing extending or expanding the existing Subway, but instead building a completely new, separate system !

Nothing to stop you using the same type of trains with compatable signallling and electrical equipment albeit on a standard gauge bogie, saving money on R&D

 

[Falcon1200]

Nothing to stop you using the same type of trains with compatable signallling and electrical equipment albeit on a standard gauge bogie, saving money on R&D

Why not just use existing standard gauge trains on standard gauge bogies - There are plenty of designs to choose from, every one better than the tiny, cramped Subway trains (whether old or new) !

 

[PTR 444]

Leave the subway as it is! It’s a unique single line circle which has never expanded since opening, and the trains would not be compatible with the rest of Glasgow’s railways. That’s not to say I’m not in support of building new metro lines in Glasgow, but they should be physically separate to the existing subway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would prefer somebody from Glasgow who knows the city being able to tell me the viability of the idea and perhap make suggestions to me than somebody who is just being a contrarian for the sake of it.

Whilst I’m not from Glasgow, I do know it rather well. And I’m certainly not being contrarian for the sake of it. I am, perhaps somewhat grumpy at present, so please let me say sorry for that!

You suggested before that serious consideration should be given to using central reservations, or elevated sections, to extend the subway. Others have explained why extending the subway is not a good idea.

On the point of central reservations, realistically there are only two in Glasgow that are wide enough for even a small railway as per the subway, at ground level:

Great Western Rd from Anniesland to just past the Kilbowie roundabout. Most of that route is paralleled by the existing Singer line.

Edinburgh Road from Carnytne to Baillieston, parallel to the Aidrie line.

Both would be up against the issue of severing one side of the road from the other.


Building new, elevated, local transport systems in urban areas is something this country has, rightly, avoided doing for a century or so.

The point is I'm trying to proactively look at ways to expand the subway

I suppose my point is / was: what is the problem you are trying to solve?

If it is “to improve public transport in greater Glasgow in a way that delivers good value for money for Glasgow residents and taxpayers”, there are many possible answers, of which extending the subway (by any means other than more tunnelling) is rather near the bottom the list.