Could the Sutton loop become an extension of the District Line?

[jhy44]

I'd rather see the Wimbledon-Sutton section be taken over by the District Line, with a 6-12tph frequency.
Ideally some sort of tunnel/fly-under to separate traffic.

I'd imagine most people would still change at Wimbledon for fast mainline services into Vauxhall/Waterloo rather than stay on right through to Earls Court / Edgware Road, but would give people the option to do so for better connections into West London.

 

[TRAX]

That’ll be a rather expensive extension (fourth rail, infrastructure, etc).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd rather see the Wimbledon-Sutton section be taken over by the District Line, with a 6-12tph frequency.
Ideally some sort of tunnel/fly-under to separate traffic.

I'd imagine most people would still change at Wimbledon for fast mainline services into Vauxhall/Waterloo rather than stay on right through to Earls Court / Edgware Road, but would give people the option to do so for better connections into West London.

In terms of infrastructure, the big problem is at Wimbledon: You'd have to extend the District line under the road bridge and offices parallel to the SWR lines - knocking down quite a bit of the station in the process as well as widening the bridge and possibly causing issues with foundations for the office blocks, and then - as you say - either flyover or tunnel across the SWR lines to get to the Sutton loop. Then at Sutton you'd run into the question of, is there capacity to terminate 6tph there? I suspect not, so you'd need to build another couple of platforms - and looking at Google Maps, there's not really room to do that without knocking down a few buildings. That's going to be a mega-expensive project, just to provide a higher frequency through a not-massively-populated part of London! On the upside, Wimbledon is probably due for a rebuild for CR2 anyway - and those problematic offices may get knocked down to facilitate that, although that's not going to be for at least another 10 years or so.

I'm not sure whether there might also be issues that the District line has its own reliability problems, I'm guessing mainly because of congestion at Earls Court and various flat junctions - especially around Paddington/Edgware Road. Do you want those problems crossing over to the national rail network?

 

[etr221]

I think the original proposal for the Wimbledon-Sutton line came from the the Metropolitan District Railway.

It was actually built by the Southern Railway to keep the Underground (either MDR or C&SL/LER (i.e. Northern Line)) out...

 

[Dr Hoo]

For a frequent service (which would seem to be the main benefit for the St Helier Line, rather than journey time) you would also need a new set of dedicated platforms at Sutton for the terminating trains. There would be a material increase in District Line fleet size so probably some new depot facilities as well.
I was under the impression that Wimbledon-Earl’s Court was pretty much at capacity for both trains and passengers. So there would seem to be a need for huge expenditure for not a lot of overall gain. Some current District Line passengers at Putney Bridge, etc. definitely wouldn’t like it.

 

[MontyP]

In terms of infrastructure, the big problem is at Wimbledon: You'd have to extend the District line under the road bridge and offices parallel to the SWR lines - knocking down quite a bit of the station in the process as well as widening the bridge and possibly causing issues with foundations for the office blocks, and then - as you say - either flyover or tunnel across the SWR lines to get to the Sutton loop. Then at Sutton you'd run into the question of, is there capacity to terminate 6tph there? I suspect not, so you'd need to build another couple of platforms - and looking at Google Maps, there's not really room to do that without knocking down a few buildings. That's going to be a mega-expensive project, just to provide a higher frequency through a not-massively-populated part of London! On the upside, Wimbledon is probably due for a rebuild for CR2 anyway - and those problematic offices may get knocked down to facilitate that, although that's not going to be for at least another 10 years or so.

I'm not sure whether there might also be issues that the District line has its own reliability problems, I'm guessing mainly because of congestion at Earls Court and various flat junctions - especially around Paddington/Edgware Road. Do you want those problems crossing over to the national rail network?

It is true that this isn’t a heavily populated area of London - but surely the slow transport links to central London are part of the reason for this? Given London’s need for more housing, there must be sites near some of the stations between Wimbledon and Sutton that could support housing development coupled to investment in transport infrstructure.

Personally I would add the link from Wimbledon to Sutton into CR2 (separate thread?), and at the same time as CR 2 divert the trams out of Wimbledon station onto the streets. Then have a more frequent (every 15 mins) Thameslink starting/terminating at Wimbledon using the platforms freed up from the trams.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For a frequent service (which would seem to be the main benefit for the St Helier Line, rather than journey time) you would also need a new set of dedicated platforms at Sutton for the terminating trains. There would be a material increase in District Line fleet size so probably some new depot facilities as well.
I was under the impression that Wimbledon-Earl’s Court was pretty much at capacity for both trains and passengers. So there would seem to be a need for huge expenditure for not a lot of overall gain. Some current District Line passengers at Putney Bridge, etc. definitely wouldn’t like it.

Indeed - the constraints at Sutton are well enough known , note that when building the "Wall of Death" on the approach to Sutton , that some rather new houses had to be demolished to create the route. To be fair , the route -even when filled up with "semi-detached London" , has never really been a railway winner - thanks to low service frequencies , a very round about route to London (especially when it was Holborn Viaduct !) and a lavish bus feeder service into Morden with a very frequent service to both City and West End. The Southern Railway must have regretted the "geo-politics" of the construction.

In any case - the first call on the District Line - were it possible (which it is not thanks to Earl's Court) would be to ameliorate the horrendous crowding in existance today.A feature since the 1980's if not before.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is true that this isn’t a heavily populated area of London - but surely the slow transport links to central London are part of the reason for this? Given London’s need for more housing, there must be sites near some of the stations between Wimbledon and Sutton that could support housing development coupled to investment in transport infrstructure.

Personally I would add the link from Wimbledon to Sutton into CR2 (separate thread?), and at the same time as CR 2 divert the trams out of Wimbledon station onto the streets. Then have a more frequent (every 15 mins) Thameslink starting/terminating at Wimbledon using the platforms freed up from the trams.

The consulted CR2 plans require the trams to be removed from the station anyway, irrespective of which mainline branches CR2 ends up using. The idea is that there’ll be two CR2 platforms, but still only one for Thameslink and Southern. (That’s the 2 tph Southern London Bridge to Blackfriars bays service round the loop that is yet to start.)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed - the constraints at Sutton are well enough known , note that when building the "Wall of Death" on the approach to Sutton ,

What's that?

 

[Aictos]

What's that?

The short section between West Sutton station and West junction is known as the "Wall of Death" due to the very steep concrete walls to the cutting on both sides and the sharpness of the curve which resemble the motorcycle ride at a funfair.

Does that answer your question?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The short section between West Sutton station and West junction is known as the "Wall of Death" due to the very steep concrete walls to the cutting on both sides and the sharpness of the curve which resemble the motorcycle ride at a funfair.

Does that answer your question?

It does thanks

 

[Aictos]

It does thanks

No worries, glad to be of assistance.

 

[edwin_m]

The short section between West Sutton station and West junction is known as the "Wall of Death" due to the very steep concrete walls to the cutting on both sides and the sharpness of the curve which resemble the motorcycle ride at a funfair.

Does that answer your question?

Isn't it also something to do with the severe gradients and adhesion problems in leafy Surrey?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The short section between West Sutton station and West junction is known as the "Wall of Death" due to the very steep concrete walls to the cutting on both sides and the sharpness of the curve which resemble the motorcycle ride at a funfair.

Does that answer your question?

It does indeed relate to the Southern Railway motormen' s term for the route , as the fairground show was a motorbike at some speed climbing up the inside of a wooden planked circulur pit ....

The SR train service was circular - Holborn Viaduct to Holborn Viaduct (or sometimes London Bridge) - in both directions - out via Tulse Hill , Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Tulse Hil etc etc. So they ended up where they came from and went up some fierce 1 in 37 gradients on the approach to Sutton from West Sutton.

This is a very old term - and in use in my day down there in the 1980's , we must keep it going if we can.

 

[telstarbox]

After the burghers of Sutton rejected the Thameslink proposals, this idea would appear to be politically ... challenging to say the least.

 

[Aictos]

It does indeed relate to the Southern Railway motormen' s term for the route , as the fairground show was a motorbike at some speed climbing up the inside of a wooden planked circulur pit ....

The SR train service was circular - Holborn Viaduct to Holborn Viaduct (or sometimes London Bridge) - in both directions - out via Tulse Hill , Sutton - Wimbledon - Tooting - Tulse Hil etc etc. So they ended up where they came from and went up some fierce 1 in 37 gradients on the approach to Sutton from West Sutton.

This is a very old term - and in use in my day down there in the 1980's , we must keep it going if we can.

Now you're just showing your age!

And yes that's what I've always known it as, btw any idea if any cab ride videos exist to show just how challenging it is?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Now you're just showing your age!

And yes that's what I've always known it as, btw any idea if any cab ride videos exist to show just how challenging it is?

A very good point about videos - being a forgotten line , it was clearly forgotten.

A brute of a line in the Autumn - and assisting as temporary SM Wimbledon in the fierce weather of 1987 (snow ,ice - you name it) - on one was brave enough to risk even an 8 EPB or 8 455 on the line , it was suggested to run a 12 car CIG etc formation up there to act as icebreaker , but there was more than enough difficulty in keeping other routes open , including the District (I went out an assisted a gapped "C" stock in the evening - as well as scraping various points and con rails.

So we let the route fester until the weather warmed up a bit.

Yes , I am showing my age. No one much calls routes by their old nicknames anymore - "Sprat and WInkle etc" - but the "Wall of Death" needs to be maintained IMHO.

 

[Bald Rick]

The consulted CR2 plans require the trams to be removed from the station anyway, irrespective of which mainline branches CR2 ends up using. The idea is that there’ll be two CR2 platforms, but still only one for Thameslink and Southern. (That’s the 2 tph Southern London Bridge to Blackfriars bays service round the loop that is yet to start.)

4 platforms for CR2

Yes , I am showing my age. No one much calls routes by their old nicknames anymore - "Sprat and WInkle etc" - but the "Wall of Death" needs to be maintained IMHO.

Don’t worry, we all still know it as the wall of death. Indeed it doesn’t have any other name that I’m aware of!

 

[Bald Rick]

In any case - the first call on the District Line - were it possible (which it is not thanks to Earl's Court) would be to ameliorate the horrendous crowding in existance today.A feature since the 1980's if not before.

District line freq to Wimbledon goes up when the Ealing Branch transfers to the Picc post the latters resignalling / new stock.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

4 platforms for CR2




Don’t worry, we all still know it as the wall of death. Indeed it doesn’t have any other name that I’m aware of!

Can you get that slipped into the Sectional Appendix.? - that would nail it ...

 

[swt_passenger]

4 platforms for CR2

Well spotted. I was forgetting the terminating pair. Even more reason why the trams just have to go...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

District line freq to Wimbledon goes up when the Ealing Branch transfers to the Picc post the latters resignalling / new stock.

Is that committed ? (presumably -- a bit off topic - giving the Picc. 3 western branches !) - sounds a bit RER'ish.

Loadings always been very heavy on the District , one of my near neighbours was the Divisional Operating Manager for LUL , so I would occasionally enjoy a cab ride with him to Earl's Court , far better than the passenger accommodation which was usually crush loaded after Putney Bridge and impossible by Parsons Green. One would stand usually from Wimbledon .....

 

[jhy44]

Indeed - the constraints at Sutton are well enough known , note that when building the "Wall of Death" on the approach to Sutton , that some rather new houses had to be demolished to create the route. To be fair , the route -even when filled up with "semi-detached London" , has never really been a railway winner - thanks to low service frequencies , a very round about route to London (especially when it was Holborn Viaduct !) and a lavish bus feeder service into Morden with a very frequent service to both City and West End. The Southern Railway must have regretted the "geo-politics" of the construction.

In any case - the first call on the District Line - were it possible (which it is not thanks to Earl's Court) would be to ameliorate the horrendous crowding in existence today.A feature since the 1980's if not before.

And reducing that traffic into Morden is a big advantage. The Northern line is extremely over crowded between Clapham South and Stockwell, one of the most overcrowded sections on the network; diverting some of the traffic from the Southern reaches of the line onto other lines, by improving their frequency, would be a very feasible solution to what is currently a problem with no planned solution except Crossrail 2, which is decades away, if it happens at all.

As for crowding on the District; the only stretch of the line that is in the 'Very Crowded' (4+ people standing per m^2) is Fulham Broadway to Earl's Court, and considering that stretch is no where near max. possible frequency (unlike the Northern Line which almost is), so aforementioned overcrowding isn't a limiting factor.

But all valid points.

 

[jhy44]

Is that committed ? (presumably -- a bit off topic - giving the Picc. 3 western branches !) - sounds a bit RER'ish.

Loadings always been very heavy on the District , one of my near neighbours was the Divisional Operating Manager for LUL , so I would occasionally enjoy a cab ride with him to Earl's Court , far better than the passenger accommodation which was usually crush loaded after Putney Bridge and impossible by Parsons Green. One would stand usually from Wimbledon .....

It's not committed, but it's a confirmed TfL aspiration. The new Piccadilly line stock (hoped to arrive in 2023*) will increase the frequency of the Picc in Central London, but the Heathrow & Uxbridge branches don't really need a frequency increase, so they need somewhere near to where the branches split to turn back the trains; Ealing Broadway is in the perfect location. And conveniently means they can cut the District line back and increase the frequency of the Richmond & Wimbledon branches, win win.

So the increased frequency of the Wimbledon Branch post 2023 would really open up more capacity for, idk, say, Sutton loop passengers

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And reducing that traffic into Morden is a big advantage. The Northern line is extremely over crowded between Clapham South and Stockwell, one of the most overcrowded sections on the network; diverting some of the traffic from the Southern reaches of the line onto other lines, by improving their frequency, would be a very feasible solution to what is currently a problem with no planned solution except Crossrail 2, which is decades away, if it happens at all.

As for crowding on the District; the only stretch of the line that is in the 'Very Crowded' (4+ people standing per m^2) is Fulham Broadway to Earl's Court, and considering that stretch is no where near max. possible frequency (unlike the Northern Line which almost is), so aforementioned overcrowding isn't a limiting factor.

But all valid points.

Agreed - forgot about the "carnage" on the Northern Line , even with ATO now - (being an old git , it was 1926 2 aspect color lights - with rather tatty 1956 / 1959 and 1972 stock when I was last using it on a fairly regular basis) , I suspect some of the popularity of TLK was /is those preferring to travel in daylight on a busy train , (with low frequency admittedly) , compared to the packing in on the Tube stock)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It's not committed, but it's a confirmed TfL aspiration. The new Piccadilly line stock (hoped to arrive in 2023*) will increase the frequency of the Picc in Central London, but the Heathrow & Uxbridge branches don't really need a frequency increase, so they need somewhere near to where the branches split to turn back the trains; Ealing Broadway is in the perfect location. And conveniently means they can cut the District line back and increase the frequency of the Richmond & Wimbledon branches, win win.

So the increased frequency of the Wimbledon Branch post 2023 would really open up more capacity for, idk, say, Sutton loop passengers

Thank you for that , appreciated. (the Picc. stays to UXO then ?) , - this is my next Tuesday outing sorted ....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well spotted. I was forgetting the terminating pair. Even more reason why the trams just have to go...

That's making me think... Lots of CR2 trains planned to terminate at Wimbledon. Operational problems on the Thameslink Sutton loop because there's no terminus so nowhere for trains to catch up after delays. Post CR2, most people on Thameslink trains between Wimbledon and Sutton will probably be aiming to change to CR2 at Wimbledon. That all makes having CR2 take over the Wimbledon-Sutton line (which a few people here have suggested) look like a complete no-brainer. Better for most passengers AND operationally better (for Thameslink). Has that possibility never been considered in the CR2 plans?

 

[swt_passenger]

That's making me think... Lots of CR2 trains planned to terminate at Wimbledon. Operational problems on the Thameslink Sutton loop because there's no terminus so nowhere for trains to catch up after delays. Post CR2, most people on Thameslink trains between Wimbledon and Sutton will probably be aiming to change to CR2 at Wimbledon. That all makes having CR2 take over the Wimbledon-Sutton line (which a few people here have suggested) look like a complete no-brainer. Has that possibility never been considered in the CR2 plans?

As a quick answer from memory, I don’t think so. There’ve been a few changes to the SWT/SWR destinations, eg removal of Twickenham, but I don’t think Sutton (or anything Thameslink or Southern) ever got mentioned. It’s almost as though it was Ex Waterloo routes or nothing...

Which also reminds me that all that Crossrail consultation about the interchanges with the northern line a year or so back seem to have gone very quiet...

 

[Bald Rick]

That's making me think... Lots of CR2 trains planned to terminate at Wimbledon. Operational problems on the Thameslink Sutton loop because there's no terminus so nowhere for trains to catch up after delays. Post CR2, most people on Thameslink trains between Wimbledon and Sutton will probably be aiming to change to CR2 at Wimbledon. That all makes having CR2 take over the Wimbledon-Sutton line (which a few people here have suggested) look like a complete no-brainer. Better for most passengers AND operationally better (for Thameslink). Has that possibility never been considered in the CR2 plans?

Yes it has been considered. It is far from a ‘no brainer’. Not least because of what happens at the Sutton end.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes it has been considered. It is far from a ‘no brainer’. Not least because of what happens at the Sutton end.

Yes, I guess the problem is, Sutton couldn't cope with all those trains terminating and then laying over in the platforms, and no room there to build more platforms.

Hmmm.... putting crayonista hat on... Have the Thameslink trains run through to Epsom, replacing the 2tph Epsom-Sutton-Croydon-London, which would be curtailed to terminate at Sutton, in the Epsom Downs platforms (or if necessary, build a siding beyond those platforms for those trains to turn around). That removes all the conflicting moves just East of Sutton. Build a siding east of Sutton on the Mitcham line for the CR2 trains to turn around in. And I think you've solved all the problems at Sutton, other than that a more frequent Wimbledon-Sutton service means more conflicting moves where the lines to Wimbledon and Epsom split (balanced by no conflicting moves east of Sutton).

The same solution would work for the OP's proposal of a District line extension, with the difference that a CR2 extension would be more useful, and may be easier to build at the Wimbledon end.

I'm sure someone will tell me there's some big problems I haven't thought of though.