Could the TfW 150s go to Northern?

[amahy]

Nothing. But they would save the cost of constantly repairing the 769s, not to mention the leasing cost. And now they are paying even more to hire extra units to cover the overhauls.

mods note - split from this thread

Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

This has been brought up in two different threads but probably warrants it's own thread: 319427 has gone for to Brush to see if 319s can have diesel engines put on them and used as bi modes for Northern. 319427 is at Brush for evaluation to see if the concept if possible, with diesel...

www.railforums.co.uk

It's a shame that more diesel units weren't ordered with the 195 order. 5 years since the OLR took over Northern, diesel routes are still plagued with short formations. I'm surprised there is absolutely nothing that Northern can do short term.

In the short term, nothing! That was noted in the tender.

The only stock avaliable any time soon that meet those requirements are either
1) The TfW 150s (currently going for scrap when they are due expensive repairs/exams)
2) The TfW 158s once the 197s start on the Cambrian line (which won't be avaliable for at least a year or so)

Long term Northern's new units will replace them (either with the 8*4 car battery units, or with the large bi-mode fleet)

Surely the TfW 150s aren't that cost prohibitive that they could be brought in for Northern to at least have a small chance of running full length trains?

 

[Bikeman78]

It's a shame that more diesel units weren't ordered with the 195 order. 5 years since the OLR took over Northern, diesel routes are still plagued with short formations. I'm surprised there is absolutely nothing that Northern can do short term.

Surely the TfW 150s aren't that cost prohibitive that they could be brought in for Northern to at least have a small chance of running full length trains?

What is even more bizarre is that Northern's own class 150s, along with GWR 150s, are still being overhauled. So it can be done. I find it hard to believe that the Welsh units, which have come from across the country are all somehow in a worse state. It doesn't add up.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What is even more bizarre is that Northern's own class 150s, along with GWR 150s, are still being overhauled. So it can be done. I find it hard to believe that the Welsh units, which have come from across the country are all somehow in a worse state. It doesn't add up.

Do the Welsh 150s spend a lot more time close to the coast ( Cardiff / Swansea / Tenby area ) with exposure to salt spray or would they be about equal to the GWR ones in that respect ( thinking of Dawlish / Exmouth / Looe here! )

 

[Earle Grey]

What is even more bizarre is that Northern's own class 150s, along with GWR 150s, are still being overhauled. So it can be done. I find it hard to believe that the Welsh units, which have come from across the country are all somehow in a worse state. It doesn't add up.

Well, no, but as Matt Rice COO Northern explained in recent Green Signals Podcast, the refurbishment of their 15x fleet is taking longer than expected as more work is reuired than planned; which puts into context why the TFW 150/2s are making a one way trip to skip.

Link below from Youtube... start from 27 minutes 43 seconds ish...

Green Signals Podcast w/Matt Rice COO Northern

 

[amahy]

Well, no, but as Matt Rice COO Northern explained in recent Green Signals Podcast, the refurbishment of their 15x fleet is taking longer than expected as more work is reuired than planned; which puts into context why the TFW 150/2s are making a one way trip to skip.

Link below from Youtube... start from 27 minutes 43 seconds ish...

Green Signals Podcast w/Matt Rice COO Northern

If anything, this is more of a case for the TfW 150s to go to Northern, as the fact that Northern's 15X refurb is taking longer means that less trains are available for service. Even if its costly, TOCs do need to make sure they have enough trains to run their services!

 

[Earle Grey]

Well, no, but as Matt Rice COO Northern explained in recent Green Signals Podcast, the refurbishment of their 15x fleet is taking longer than expected as more work is reuired than planned; which puts into context why the TFW 150/2s are making a one way trip to skip.

Link below from Youtube... start from 27 minutes 43 seconds ish...

Green Signals Podcast w/Matt Rice COO Northern

Ok link doesn't work... try this one instead...

If anything, this is more of a case for the TfW 150s to go to Northern, as the fact that Northern's 15X refurb is taking longer means that less trains are available for service. Even if its costly, TOCs do need to make sure they have enough trains to run their services!

Not when they require the same/similar amount of work being done them as part of the transfer.

 

[skyhigh]

If anything, this is more of a case for the TfW 150s to go to Northern, as the fact that Northern's 15X refurb is taking longer means that less trains are available for service. Even if its costly, TOCs do need to make sure they have enough trains to run their services!

Some of the 150s going for de-corrosion work have been in an awful state, much worse than expected. Hence all Northern 150s are undergoing scanning to check they're safe to continue in service and prioritise the worst examples for repair.

The TfW 150s are being stood down as they reach their drop-dead limits without exam work. They simply cannot go straight into service until they have been away for overhaul.

The overhaul is taking several months per unit and the amount of new steel going into the units is immense. Someone told me, though I have no idea of the truth of the statement, that the de-corrosion works on each 150 is costing about 50% the price of a new unit.

If that is true, it would be insanity to repair additional units.

 

[Iskra]

It's a shame that more diesel units weren't ordered with the 195 order. 5 years since the OLR took over Northern, diesel routes are still plagued with short formations. I'm surprised there is absolutely nothing that Northern can do short term.

Surely the TfW 150s aren't that cost prohibitive that they could be brought in for Northern to at least have a small chance of running full length trains?

And total unreliability.

Northern electric routes vs diesel route reliability and usability for the passenger is night and day, a point that doesn’t get mentioned enough.

 

[david l]

And total unreliability.

Northern electric routes vs diesel route reliability and usability for the passenger is night and day, a point that doesn’t get mentioned enough.

Clouded a bit when 769's are involved..........but they are responsible for many of the problems on North Manchester routes, with 17.7% shortforms. 6/8 are diagrammed, might soon be 6/10 but very rarely do you start the day with 6 (which means DMU's have to cover) - its usually 3 or 4 which by lunchtime drops further and services on the Manchester Ox Rd/Stalybridge- Southport route then either get cancelled/terminated short and the covering DMU's split to keep a service going. Am amazed that Northern management say nothing about this route.

 

[Towers]

Regarding comparisons of TfW 150s against others TOCs’ examples, it was widely reported than when the GWR/FGW 150 fleet began their overhaul works some years ago many of their examples had suffered significant corrosion, with the vinyl nature of their then-livery understood to have contributed. The first unit was reported to have been something of an eye opener when it was stripped down! Neverthless, the units were needed for continued service and the required works were duly carried out

It’s entirely possible to keep replacing steelwork for as long as you like, but at some stage you have to accept that the asset has reached life expiry. If you have no alternative, as per Northern’s current situation, then continuing with that work is the only path you have, however when it comes to cascading TfW’s examples elsewhere as a ‘nice to have’, the sums make rather less sense (I appreciate that Northern travellers suffering short forms may feel that the basic of having an adequate length train is not a ‘nice to have’, but ultimately the services do run without the additional trains, even if the journey experience is poor).