Could the UK Rail System cope with mail and parcels?

[kermit]

Just imagine for a moment a proactive government decision to direct mail and parcels carriers to use rail instead of road / air wherever possible.

The nostalgist in me would fondly imagine platforms once again littered with parcels trolleys, Red Star facilities at every staffed station, Travelling Post Offices with a letterbox on the side, etc etc.

But I have an awful suspicion that someone's going to tell me there are no paths available for the trains, and no space at the stations to cope with the current passenger numbers and all the old stuff.

Still, the sight of a Voyager hauling a couple of parcels vans would lift my spirits enormously!

 

[6Gman]

Three immediate problems:

1. Our stations are more crowded in many cases making it tricky to accommodate the necessary trollies etc.
2. Health & Safety with those trollies.
3. Could it be the case that the public are less trustworthy these days and that pilferage could be a problem?

 

[Greenback]

One of the reasons that Royal Mail wanted to move away from using main line terminals in London in the late 80's and early 90's were the concerns about security.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at another rail related facility from the days of yore, people of my age (69) will remember the inordinately long trains of newspaper vans at Manchester Victoria railway stations that received ready-bundled and area sorted newspapers hot from the Manchester printing houses after 2300 hours and were a feature of the very long platform 11 there.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yes the railway system could cope, but only acting as a trunk service between large road/rail distribution centres. Basically a full on class 325 service as was originally planned.

The days of TPO mail trains and parcels trains from normal stations are over.

 

[route:oxford]

Just imagine for a moment a proactive government decision to direct mail and parcels carriers to use rail instead of road / air wherever possible.

Who would define what is possible?

The nostalgist in me would fondly imagine platforms once again littered with parcels trolleys, Red Star facilities at every staffed station, Travelling Post Offices with a letterbox on the side, etc etc.

The trolleys would be pushed onto the track. There's are probably more Collect+ outlets than Post Offices facilities let alone stations.

I can just imagine how drivers would feel approaching a station to see a lone person standing at the platform edge late at night.

But I have an awful suspicion that someone's going to tell me there are no paths available for the trains, and no space at the stations to cope with the current passenger numbers and all the old stuff.

I won't bother then...

Still, the sight of a Voyager hauling a couple of parcels vans would lift my spirits enormously!

And the signallers look on in horror as they lose flexibility at Brum and try to marshall stock in Glasgow and Edinburgh for reversals.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think there is scope for the bulk movement of mail by rail between main hubs. I'm thinking Glasgow/Newcastle/Doncaster/Bristol/Cardiff to/from London. But that would only be the movement of bulk mail I can't see travelling post offices ever returning as the Royal Mail move to very large automatic sorting centres.

 

[Hornet]

One of the reasons that Royal Mail wanted to move away from using main line terminals in London in the late 80's and early 90's were the concerns about security.

Rail freight in urban logistics as rail trial brings goods into Euston

http://www.freightonrail.org.uk/Hot...LogisticsAsRailTrialBringsGoodsIntoEuston.htm

TNT seems a rather unfortunate name for a Logistics Company. Would love to be at Euston Station if an announcement was made to the effect "could the courier who left the TNT package at Platform 11, pleas go back and retrieve it".

 

[kermit]

Rail freight in urban logistics as rail trial brings goods into Euston

http://www.freightonrail.org.uk/Hot...LogisticsAsRailTrialBringsGoodsIntoEuston.htm

TNT seems a rather unfortunate name for a Logistics Company. Would love to be at Euston Station if an announcement was made to the effect "could the courier who left the TNT package at Platform 11, pleas go back and retrieve it".

Do you recall the date of that article? Has anything happened since?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once HS2 is opened I wouldn't be surprised to see a mail/freight version of whatever stock is chosen doing trunk runs

 

[deltic]

A small amount of bulk mail still does travel by rail but between dedicated terminals - is there still a bulk parcel service out of Daventry?

 

[Tangent]

I think there is scope for the bulk movement of mail by rail between main hubs. I'm thinking Glasgow/Newcastle/Doncaster/Bristol/Cardiff to/from London. But that would only be the movement of bulk mail I can't see travelling post offices ever returning as the Royal Mail move to very large automatic sorting centres.

I would agree.

But, if I had been Postmaster-General or Minister of Transport in the 1950s, I would have aimed to integrate mail and rail as much as possible, with stations providing post offices, and sorting and telegraph facilities.

 

[generalvegitable]

Still, the sight of a Voyager hauling a couple of parcels vans would lift my spirits enormously!

maybe something like this might be a bit more appropriate http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?dmu220004_RM.jpg?

 

[kevconnor]

Do you recall the date of that article? Has anything happened since?

Following through the link on the website leads to this website:

http://www.intermodality.com/news.html

which then says the original TNT press release can be found here:

http://www.tnt.com/express/en_gb/da...ttersupporttoukbusinessesandcutcarbonemi.html

which is dated 5th June 2014

 

[kermit]

maybe something like this might be a bit more appropriate http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?dmu220004_RM.jpg?

Floats my boat!

Possibly a tad too dignified for the Voyager though.

Anyone given similar treatment to a Pacer yet?

 

[arfortune]

Think there could be opportunities especially when you consider the huge increase in internet shopping etc. Stations are already developing into pick up points for both goods and groceries. They're often conveniently located, and providing additional services could make use of spare buildings thus reinvigorating communities, enable locations to have a staff presence (I appreciate they wouldn't be rail staff, but having people around is always good). Why not go so far as to offer Post offices locations in stations?
There's also potential to perhaps utilise off peak trains to carry stuff, which benefits all.
I agree how railways use to carry mail and parcels has prob ended, but there's potential to look at innovative suggestions.
I know too the Rail Executive is considering and exploring such things too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Do you recall the date of that article? Has anything happened since?

No nothing came of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think there could be opportunities especially when you consider the huge increase in internet shopping etc. Stations are already developing into pick up points for both goods and groceries. They're often conveniently located, and providing additional services could make use of spare buildings thus reinvigorating communities, enable locations to have a staff presence (I appreciate they wouldn't be rail staff, but having people around is always good). Why not go so far as to offer Post offices locations in stations?
There's also potential to perhaps utilise off peak trains to carry stuff, which benefits all.
I agree how railways use to carry mail and parcels has prob ended, but there's potential to look at innovative suggestions.
I know too the Rail Executive is considering and exploring such things too.

The problem is I'm not sure that the railway network is not flexible enough able to provide next day delivery for the likes of Next and Amazon. We have to remember that the items that we can now collect at stations are not delivered by rail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A small amount of bulk mail still does travel by rail but between dedicated terminals - is there still a bulk parcel service out of Daventry?

I don't think there ever was a bulk parcels service from Daventry. The trial TNT service ran from Rugby.

 

[LateThanNever]

No nothing came of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The problem is I'm not sure that the railway network is not flexible enough able to provide next day delivery for the likes of Next and Amazon. We have to remember that the items that we can now collect at stations are not delivered by rail.

That my be true now, but I always thought as a regular user of UK Mail (for what it's worth) that it would be a just as reliable service. In the sense that I remember a serious accent involving an Interlink trunker on the M5 which blocked the line - as it were - for everyone else so everything was delayed in the South West by anything up to a day. So I think the railway can and should compete. In spite of the engineering works at night, they are not everywhere, and the reliability should not be difficult to maintain and a real PR plus, particularly for distant areas such as the "sleeper " destinations!

 

[RichmondCommu]

That my be true now, but I always thought as a regular user of UK Mail (for what it's worth) that it would be a just as reliable service. In the sense that I remember a serious accent involving an Interlink trunker on the M5 which blocked the line - as it were - for everyone else so everything was delayed in the South West by anything up to a day. So I think the railway can and should compete. In spite of the engineering works at night, they are not everywhere, and the reliability should not be difficult to maintain and a real PR plus, particularly for distant areas such as the "sleeper " destinations!

I'm pretty certain that the Royal Mail ended its contract because of reliability issues. For the railway to start carrying more parcels the likes of TNT, DHL and Interlink would have to be convinced that things have changed. If the M5 is blocked there are at least alternative routes. If the line between Taunton and Bristol is blocked the railway network is then struggling.

The other issue is price. I get the impression that the market is cut throat and I'm not so certain that the railways could compete on cost. I would love to see more freight carried on our network but one can't help but wonder why the TNT trial into Euston came to nothing. It's pretty obvious that Colas had the will to do something.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'm pretty certain that the Royal Mail ended its contract because of reliability issues. For the railway to start carrying more parcels the likes of TNT, DHL and Interlink would have to be convinced that things have changed. If the M5 is blocked there are at least alternative routes. If the line between Taunton and Bristol is blocked the railway network is then struggling.

The other issue is price. I get the impression that the market is cut throat and I'm not so certain that the railways could compete on cost. I would love to see more freight carried on our network but one can't help but wonder why the TNT trial into Euston came to nothing. It's pretty obvious that Colas had the will to do something.

Royal Mail ended its contract because (a) it had been looking to get out of it for years,

(b) New TPOs would've had to been built. The existing ones were Mk1 based. RM were not willing to pay for new stock.

(c) The troubles caused after Hatfield (particularly as most of the renewals were done at night - when the TPOs were running). I'm sure commuters remember the fact that the whole railway nationwide ground to a halt.

(d) They got a good deal with air carriers.

Having said that, it didn't take long for a 325 service to start again. It still runs to this day.

 

[WatcherZero]

At the moment the parcels business is suffering from intense competition and low margins and one courier went bellyup at Christmas (after encouraging its employees to become independent contractors and purchase their own vans and so not having to pay redundancy). Royal Mail is legally obliged to deliver the parcels so the last mile is sorted but I cant see it being financially competitive to transport parcels by rail in competition with the facilities and resources of a major distribution facility.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Royal Mail ended its contract because (a) it had been looking to get out of it for years,

(b) New TPOs would've had to been built. The existing ones were Mk1 based. RM were not willing to pay for new stock.

(c) The troubles caused after Hatfield (particularly as most of the renewals were done at night - when the TPOs were running). I'm sure commuters remember the fact that the whole railway nationwide ground to a halt.

(d) They got a good deal with air carriers.

Having said that, it didn't take long for a 325 service to start again. It still runs to this day.

I'm aware that the class 325's are indeed running daily services but of course they are owned by Royal Mail so it doesn't make sense to not make use of an asset that you own. And of course they only pretty much run on the WCML although I think there is occasional use of the ECML.

Whilst I agree with (b) and (C) we need to ask ourselves why Royal Mail had been looking for an oppotunity to cancel its contract over a number of years, which of course would have had very little to do with Hatfield which would have only been a short term decision.

Given that the Royal Mail got a good deal with the carriers how hard would it be to get them back?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the moment the parcels business is suffering from intense competition and low margins and one courier went bellyup at Christmas (after encouraging its employees to become independent contractors and purchase their own vans and so not having to pay redundancy). Royal Mail is legally obliged to deliver the parcels so the last mile is sorted but I cant see it being financially competitive to transport parcels by rail in competition with the facilities and resources of a major distribution facility.

Well exactly. Its a nice idea but when it comes to cost the railway doesn't stand a chance I'm afraid.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the sense that I remember a serious accent involving an Interlink trunker on the M5 which blocked the line - as it were - for everyone else so everything was delayed in the South West by anything up to a day.

I agree that some accents can be extremely hard to understand by people from different areas. Perhaps the driver of the Interlink trunker came from the West Midlands where a strong accent most certainly exists...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I doubt that any new TPOs would ever be built as I expect that Royal Mail will over time want to automate as much of the sorting as they can. They use planes to send some stuff up and down the country, that must be a pita for them as the mail will have to go through xray machines, where as stuff that gets transported by rail just gets taken to depot A loaded onto a train to depot B and unloaded at depot B.

Could 325s be candidates for future battery power, if RM wanted to build a new rail hub but didn't want any 3rd rail or overhead within the building?

 

[AM9]

Looking at another rail related facility from the days of yore, people of my age (69) will remember the inordinately long trains of newspaper vans at Manchester Victoria railway stations that received ready-bundled and area sorted newspapers hot from the Manchester printing houses after 2300 hours and were a feature of the very long platform 11 there.

My memory is of the 03:45 LST-SOV all stations. It was a 306 EMU (they were all 3x3-car) with bundles of newspapers on every other seat. It stopped for up to 5 minutes at each station whilst papers were unloaded.

That taught me to not miss the last train!

 

[merlodlliw]

Looking at another rail related facility from the days of yore, people of my age (69) will remember the inordinately long trains of newspaper vans at Manchester Victoria railway stations that received ready-bundled and area sorted newspapers hot from the Manchester printing houses after 2300 hours and were a feature of the very long platform 11 there.

I worked the 1020 Saturday night to Holyhead,this train carried news for Bangor & Holyhead plus passengers. It left from platform eleven middle,then the longest platform in the UK.

The news for Chester & Rhyl/Colwyn Bay departed at 0208 arriving Rhyl around 0430, my colleagues in Anglesey had finished shift when I started on Rhyl Station sorting news for Wholesalers from Rhyl to Ruthin off the 0208.
Happy days.

 

[DarloRich]

As a concept why should pre-sorted and packed mail not be carried on the railways like any other containerised product between a fairly limited number of regional handling hubs and a point? The days of sporting mail on the move are gone. It just doesn’t seem an efficient use of resources in the 21st centaury.

The issues would be network access, available train paths, rolling stock and reliability. Could the railway make a case to support next day delivery options?

 

[Emyr]

Same day even, do Virgin carry 8 bicycles per hour between Manchester and Euston or could express cargo make use of the space?

 

[otomous]

The other issue is, who will handle the parcels? In The 80s a booking clerk would often ask me to give a parcel to the guard of the train I was catching and vice versa - who would handle it now? Not very practical on a DOO train with minimal or part time station staff.

 

[merlodlliw]

Same day even, do Virgin carry 8 bicycles per hour between Manchester and Euston or could express cargo make use of the space?

I recall Red Star, a station to station guarantee of delivery,it was a good idea to use spare space on guards vans in the off peak times,usually intercity stock

If the parcel was to change trains, someone would do this, a precursor to todays tracking system.

I did hear parcels are carried on the Howl, a hotel owner at Llanrwtyd wells told me a few years ago, he received supplies from a station down the line. Not sure if this still occurs.