Could ticket splitting be banned?

[Bletchleyite]

Wow I totally didn't think of the Boris buses though they do have a conductor on them which I guess is something

The conductor has no revenue duties at all, they are purely there to monitor the operation of the open platform and provide customer service assistance if needed.

I expect they will be removed (and the platform used as a regular third door) once the novelty has worn off and the money run out.

 

[Deerfold]

Wow I totally didn't think of the Boris buses though they do have a conductor on them which I guess is something

Many of them don't have a "conductor". Their job description does not include checking tickets.

There is also multi-door boarding on the 507 and 521 routes.

 

[jon0844]

A fascinating variation on this would be for the stamping of the ticket to trigger the ORCATS revenue allocation, ensuring that the revenue went in all cases to the operator which actually carried the traffic.

I imagine a smartcard system would benefit from having validators on trains, such that boarding certain services (e.g. fast/intercity trains) would be more expensive than taking a slow metro/all stopper service.

This would then give passengers the ability to make a choice on how much to spend in 'real time' rather than having to plan in advance.

However, I'd see them more like the pink validators meaning they'd be required only to 'prove' your route, not to actually travel. You'd still touch in/out as normal (and be considered without a ticket for failing to do so) and just be charged the maximum fare if you didn't show you took a slower service that has a cheaper fare.

Ticket splitting would no doubt then cease to even be a thing, but for most people I think the positives would outweigh the negatives.

open boarding was a supposed reason to get rid of the bendies[1], then the new buses operate near enough the same system.

I expect it was an easier way to sell the removal of the bendy buses to the public, but we all know the key reason was that for many routes they were unsuitable and dangerous. I travelled on enough of them that clipped kerbs and mounted pavements when turning (sure, a lot of this was because of badly parked vehicles forcing bus drivers to do so) and saw - as a pedestrian - bendy buses coming very close to hitting people on pavements as a result.

Bendy buses are fine, in the right places.

Fare evasion was a major problem, of course, and may still be now, but that's really a secondary problem.

I don't think it's a bad thing we got rid of them in London, and doubt anyone really misses them. Certainly not people who found it hard to have to run way back to board a bus behind two bendies, and if you didn't would just close the doors and drive off. Again, because of other vehicles, it must have been a nightmare to line up to the kerb to let a wheelchair on in many places.

 

[Clip]

I do apologise for not being so bang up to date and knowing every bus and what is on them - I can only go on what I witness. I will do my best to know the full ins and outs before I comment.

But validators on trains by the doors is just asking for trouble.

 

[Deerfold]

I do apologise for not being so bang up to date and knowing every bus and what is on them - I can only go on what I witness. I will do my best to know the full ins and outs before I comment.

I don't think anyone expects everyone to know everything - I meant no criticism, just saw an opportunity to add some useful information.

But validators on trains by the doors is just asking for trouble.

If they're in addition to the gates we have now, I don't see what we lose.

 

[jon0844]

I do apologise for not being so bang up to date and knowing every bus and what is on them - I can only go on what I witness. I will do my best to know the full ins and outs before I comment.

But validators on trains by the doors is just asking for trouble.

I think the only purpose of validators on trains would be to allow people to get a better fare, meaning people will have an incentive to use them - not an incentive NOT to use them.

If you ever had a system that worked out the best fare(s) for a day of travel, or indeed even worked out better pricing for regular travel over a week, month, year - thus doing away with the need for season tickets (in theory) then you would likely need something like this.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I think the only purpose of validators on trains would be to allow people to get a better fare, meaning people will have an incentive to use them - not an incentive NOT to use them.

I cannot help feel that something like that may be necessary with Crossrail at the hinterland of stations on the Western main line and branches that would be reached without passing a barrier until exit after leaving Central London. It might be enough just to put a reader on the platform as at Ealing Broadway, depending on how far beyond West Drayton, the Oyster area is extended.

 

[Dent]

I imagine a smartcard system would benefit from having validators on trains, such that boarding certain services (e.g. fast/intercity trains) would be more expensive than taking a slow metro/all stopper service.

Why would you want to encourage long-distance travellers onto stopping services, which are typically busier already and intended for short commuter-type journeys?

It would be better all round if long-distance journeys were made on services designed for that type of journey, and space left on stopping services for local journeys.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It would be better all round if long-distance journeys were made on services designed for that type of journey, and space left on stopping services for local journeys.

It can already happen with Advance tickets. I've noticed that the cheapest advances are often those on the "Inter-Town" service, in other words the train running a long distance that runs a semi fast or loop route for part of the journey. For example, if you look at advances for Euston to Preston or Lancaster, the cheaper prices are on the London to Glasgow or London to Edinburgh services that make a most stations detour through Birmingham.

 

[Dent]

It can already happen with Advance tickets. I've noticed that the cheapest advances are often those on the "Inter-Town" service, in other words the train running a long distance that runs a semi fast or loop route for part of the journey. For example, if you look at advances for Euston to Preston or Lancaster, the cheaper prices are on the London to Glasgow or London to Edinburgh services that make a most stations detour through Birmingham.

For Lancaster it's probably because not all fast trains stop there, and those that do sell out. I don't know if it is also true for Preston, but there is no rational reason for it being the case.

It's not in anyone's interest to fill those train with through passengers who will be wasting their time on the detour, while crowding out people trying to use the stations that the detour serves.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

As long as ticketing is as complex as tax then there will always be loopholes.

 

[island]

It's not in anyone's interest to fill those train with through passengers who will be wasting their time on the detour, while crowding out people trying to use the stations that the detour serves.

I'm not sure I agree. It will capture revenue from passengers who find the faster service unaffordable and would otherwise drive, take a coach, or not travel. It will encourage the time-rich to use it over a faster service and free up space on the faster service that can be sold to the time-poor at a higher price. And of course it will attract "clueless" money from people who are booking for someone else and don't care about anything but finding the cheapest ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not sure I agree. It will capture revenue from passengers who find the faster service unaffordable and would otherwise drive, take a coach, or not travel. It will encourage the time-rich to use it over a faster service and free up space on the faster service that can be sold to the time-poor at a higher price. And of course it will attract "clueless" money from people who are booking for someone else and don't care about anything but finding the cheapest ticket.

But what about the large number of passengers who will buy the cheapest ticket but go on the fast trains and then hope that their act dumb routine will get then off when they are caught?

 

[island]

But what about the large number of passengers who will buy the cheapest ticket but go on the fast trains and then hope that their act dumb routine will get then off when they are caught?

I think I intended to imply that I was talking about Advances where the passengers in question would be on the wrong train and dealt with for that.

 

[Starmill]

But what about the large number of passengers who will buy the cheapest ticket but go on the fast trains and then hope that their act dumb routine will get then off when they are caught?

This problem is also easily solved - ensure that it is quick and easy to excess between all of the walk-up fares!

 

[Flamingo]

This problem is also easily solved - ensure that it is quick and easy to excess between all of the walk-up fares!

It is quick and easy - when the passenger is willing to do so...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I intended to imply that I was talking about Advances where the passengers in question would be on the wrong train and dealt with for that.

Fair enough, I misunderstood the context.

 

[DelayRepay]

But validators on trains by the doors is just asking for trouble.

I agree with this. At a time when new trains are being designed with wide open doorways and limited "clutter" to encourage quick boarding, having everyone stop to do the ticket dance and touch in is the last thing you want.

 

[infobleep]

It is quick and easy - when the passenger is willing to do so...

I thought not all tickets could be excessed. If so it's not so easy from a passenger perspective or even a guard, who had to remember which types can be excessed and which can't.

 

[Flamingo]

I thought not all tickets could be excessed. If so it's not so easy from a passenger perspective or even a guard, who had to remember which types can be excessed and which can't.

On an Avantex ANYTHING can be excessed . That's not usually the discussion...

 

[thebigcheese]

I could maybe see something happening with lets say the 'Southeastern app' that could connect automatically to the 'Southeastern wifi' on board which would then know which train you were on etc etc. Wouldn't be fool proof however and at least 5 years away before the technology could possibly be put in place.

 

[infobleep]

On an Avantex ANYTHING can be excessed . That's not usually the discussion...

That's useful and potentially confusing as one guard may incorrectly excess something and another might apply the terms and conditions correctly.

No doubt that's not the discussion you have either!

 

[yorkie]

I've known passengers be charged nothing rather than be charged an excess because the staff were unwilling, unable or untrained to do it.

That's useful and potentially confusing as one guard may incorrectly excess something and another might apply the terms and conditions correctly.

Getting an excess can be difficult at times (this is the opposite situation to that which Flamingo faces, which is persuading a difficult customer to agree to pay for an excess that he is willing to issue) but I would argue that once you have it, the fare has been converted into another fare, and the T&Cs of the new fare apply.

“Excess Fare” means a variation in the Rights and Restrictions applicable to a Fare which has the impact of converting that Fare into another Fare”

 

[infobleep]

I've known passengers be charged nothing rather than be charged an excess because the staff were unwilling, unable or untrained to do it.

Getting an excess can be difficult at times (this is the opposite situation to that which Flamingo faces, which is persuading a difficult customer to agree to pay for an excess that he is willing to issue) but I would argue that once you have it, the fare has been converted into another fare, and the T&Cs of the new fare apply.

I was thinking more the terms and conditions as to whether they are allowed to excess the ticket, rather than the new ticket teems and conditions.

 

[furlong]

I would argue that once you have it, the fare has been converted into another fare, and the T&Cs of the new fare apply.

Indeed, the documentation couldn't be clearer and if I was ever affected by an unsupported claim that it was some hybrid where some restriction from the original ticket remained I'd be going directly to the ORR.