Could ticketing apps be designed to block "on board" ticket purchases?

[Jantra]

Just a query someone might be able to answer.
The amount of fare evasion where someone gets on a train, usually at a station without barriers and then buys a ticket on board, which starts as close to their final destination as possible, in order to save money.
Aren't the Ticketing Apps just as responsible? since most use location services and the software knows damm well you are on a train, a train that hasn't in most cases even reached the place where you 'intend' to start your rail journey ticket purchase.
If you give people such an easy opportunity to commit fraud, is it no surprise that some people take that opportunity?

Maybe the TOC's should get the Ticketing Apps to block 'on board' ticket purchases, as in effect this is illegally boarding a train without a valid ticket or would this be not possible?

 

[yorkie]

Just a query someone might be able to answer.
The amount of fare evasion where someone gets on a train, usually at a station without barriers and then buys a ticket on board, which starts as close to their final destination as possible, in order to save money.
Aren't the Ticketing Apps just as responsible?

No.

since most use location services and the software knows damm well you are on a train, a train that hasn't in most cases even reached the place where you 'intend' to start your rail journey ticket purchase.

The software does not "know you are on a train" but it's perfectly legitimate to purchase a ticket to continue your journey from where your current ticket expires, or purchase a ticket while travelling to a station.

If you give people such an easy opportunity to commit fraud, is it no surprise that some people take that opportunity?

Maybe the TOC's should get the Ticketing Apps to block 'on board' ticket purchases, as in effect this is illegally boarding a train without a valid ticket or would this be not possible?

How do you propose to achieve this?

 

[lfc84]

Location is easily faked using an Android app. So that's just one reason why the original post is just nonsense

 

[yorkie]

Location is easily faked using an Android app...

Indeed, there was a discussion on another matter recently, where the accuracy (or not) of GPS data cropped up:

Scotrail M-tickets withdrawn on certain routes.

That is unacceptable. You should buy the more expensive mTicket then demand a refund from Scotrail for the balance. If you don't get anywhere, escalate it. If necessary, claim the difference from your bank. I 100% get your sentiment - I would be really frustrated if e-tickets were removed on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Notwithstanding the fact that it's perfectly legitimate to purchase an onward ticket while on a train anyway.

 

[Jantra]

oh well, only asking the question, perhaps there are some conflicts of interests??

 

[D365]

perhaps there are some conflicts of interests??

conflict of interest? In what sense?

Notwithstanding the fact that GPS location is not precise enough to consistently determine whether or not a user is on a train. I don’t see how it would be possible to force smartphone users into continuously sharing their location with a retail/ticketing app.

 

[mike57]

I have to say this just sounds like over complication which will probably negatively affect law abiding people to try and deal with fare evasion which it will not stop.

A robust approach to fare evasion is what is needed, but this goes beyond the railways, it would mean the courts would need to deal with persistant evasion in a way that ensured that the 'crime is not worth the time' but that would mean changes to the criminal justice system and government policy.

Looking at it more widely unfortunately in the UK crime does pay, a recent case in York (not rail related) of a conman who had defrauded (mainly vulnerable) people out of ~£18,000 was sentenced to 2 years suspended sentence and 180 hours community service, not bad going, that works out at £100 an hour...

 

[kevjs]

East Midlands Railway are trialling a "simpler ticketing" app using GPS this autumn - https://news.eastmidlandsrailway.co...orkshire-and-the-east-midlands-this-september

Will be interesting to see how that works seeing as their Intercity Fleet blocks GPS signals & has pretty poor mobile/WiFi too, not to mention the extra power draw when using GPS...

 

[Zomboid]

I don’t see how it would be possible to force smartphone users into continuously sharing their location with a retail/ticketing app.

It would be perfectly possible to make an app which doesn't work without location sharing. And so long as it's not the only way to buy a ticket it'd probably be allowable.

 

[D365]

It would be perfectly possible to make an app which doesn't work without location sharing. And so long as it's not the only way to buy a ticket it'd probably be allowable.

This wouldn’t do anything for websites and other web-based ticketing solutions. So unless a train operator was to lock users in, I don’t know what it would achieve.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This wouldn’t do anything for websites and other web-based ticketing solutions. So unless a train operator was to lock users in, I don’t know what it would achieve.

Not a problem, you could do it on the mobile website just as easily as in the mobile app, there are still mechanisms to request permission to access location and you could still deny access if that permission wasn't granted ...

... still doesn't mean it's a good idea, though.

 

[Zomboid]

This wouldn’t do anything for websites and other web-based ticketing solutions. So unless a train operator was to lock users in, I don’t know what it would achieve.

Websites can be made to ask for your location, too. I sure they can be programmed to deny access to certain things without the necessary permissions, much like a paywall.

I don't think it would be a good idea (in fact I think it would be a bad idea) and there would be all sorts of loopholes anyway.

 

[Watershed]

It's not a completely 'out there' suggestion; there are moves underway for this to happen for some apps, AIUI, based on if it can see you're closer to your destination than your origin. This also addresses the wheeze of buying Anytime Day Returns the 'wrong' way around, a method of fare evasion that saves a lot of money for commuter journeys around the Southeast since many journeys have them directionally priced.

However it is easily circumvented by denying location permissions to the app, and if it refuses to run without these permission then you could just use a website to buy the ticket instead.

It's only something that will stop 'pay when challenged' types, not those who know what they are doing.

 

[SynthD]

oh well, only asking the question, perhaps there are some conflicts of interests??

Who has the conflict?

 

[Jantra]

Who has the conflict?

I suppose the old adage is follow the money. So various conflicts exist, TOCs saving money by not having paper tickets or ticket offices, but knowing full well fraud has also increased by allowing third parties to sell tickets.
To online ticket website/apps themselves that must know fraud is taking place, they could put in more robust systems, but no one wants to rock the boat and everyone shouts that its impossible anyone.
Case in point, Banks a number of years ago claimed they could not be held responsible for checking that money came from a legitimate sources and it would be too difficult anyhow. Now they are at risk of being fined, suddenly they have come up with these processes.
Even on here, there is a slight conflict, in that it both sells online tickets and gives advice to those caught misusing online tickets

 

[gswindale]

I don't think anybody is stating it is impossible.

I think they're just stating it isn't sensible.

So, I'm on a train from Waterloo to Bracknell with my season ticket. I've just passed Sunningdale and I get a call from a friend asking if I fancy a drink in Wokingham on the way home. Under your proposal, I would have to leave the train at Bracknell, exit the station and purchase a ticket from the machine and get the next train 30 minutes later. Alternatively, I could just use XXXapp to buy my ticket whilst sat on the train.

That is just one theoretical example of why this is not a good idea.

What do you suggest the more robust systems/checks should be on the basis that purchasing tickets on a moving train is a legitimate exercise for many people?