Could we see a new type of lift with 'up' and 'down' shafts?

[ijmad]

Recent concept next generation lift designs have multiple passenger compartments in each shaft with one shaft as 'down' and the other as 'up', almost like a vertical train line.

Here is a concept video from thyssenkrupp:

Something like this certainly could make lifts very competitive with escalators once again. From the video 'elevator cabins every 15 to 30 seconds'.

 

[transmanche]

Recent concept next generation lift designs have multiple passenger compartments in each shaft with one shaft as 'down' and the other as 'up', almost like a vertical train line.

A bit like a 21st Century version of the paternoster.

 

[PeterC]

Recent concept next generation lift designs have multiple passenger compartments in each shaft with one shaft as 'down' and the other as 'up', almost like a vertical train line.

Here is a concept video from thyssenkrupp:

Something like this certainly could make lifts very competitive with escalators once again. From the video 'elevator cabins every 15 to 30 seconds'.

If you are going to get in a cabin at street level at one station and get out of a cabin at street level at another then why not cut out the middle man and get rid of the train in between?

A bit simplistic but for a simple point to point service like the Waterloo and City?

 

[Bald Rick]

Recent concept next generation lift designs have multiple passenger compartments in each shaft with one shaft as 'down' and the other as 'up', almost like a vertical train line.

Something like this certainly could make lifts very competitive with escalators once again. From the video 'elevator cabins every 15 to 30 seconds'.

Trouble is, with a Crossrail style train arriving every 60 seconds, unloading 500+ people at a time, you need an awful lot of the lifts.

 

[ijmad]

If you are going to get in a cabin at street level at one station and get out of a cabin at street level at another then why not cut out the middle man and get rid of the train in between?

A bit simplistic but for a simple point to point service like the Waterloo and City?

I think that's an interesting idea. I have wondered before if the future of the metro (in 50 years) might take some cues from self driving cars and becoming point-to-point pods, choosing an optimal non-stop route for small groups of passengers. You're right that going all the way to the surface could make sense if the technology becomes available.

 

[LOL The Irony]

A bit like a 21st Century version of the paternoster.

I was thinking the same.

 

[ijmad]

I was thinking the same.

Very much so. It's a shame these went out of fashion but you can see the problems:

(a) they don't move fast enough for the sort of vertical ascent we see in modern skyscrapers (or even the 15 stories depth at Covent Garden)

(b) there are safety issues boarding a moving platform, and they can't be used by people in wheelchairs. If you slipped halfway on it would be easy to be crushed between the pod's floor and the level's ceiling

(c) they just don't scale - if you make the pods bigger, the boarding/alighting time increases, meaning there's just not time at each floor to fully disembark/embark a pod, and slowing down the belt drive means you make (a) worse and worse.

What you'd want for the tube is a Paternoster where each pod stops for 30 seconds (and longer if needed), and moves faster between the floors, but that's harder than it seems to implement! I think there might be some ways to do it mechanically without very complex technology, e.g. with variable worm gearings, but there are still compromises.

 

[Ken H]

A bit like a 21st Century version of the paternoster.

Used to be one of those for staff at Schofields department store in Leeds. Very scary to use.

 

[Kingspanner]

Older readers might remember the excellent paternoster in one of the ICI buildings in Billingham. I travelled in it several times in the late 80s, and deliberately travelled through the loft and pit just for the hell of it. I wasn't scared exactly, more apprehensive...
According to Wikipedia they are thought to be 30 times as risky as conventional elevators. Hmm.
I have read a study by the Centre for Disease Control which said that (coincidentally) 30 people on average die per year in the US in elevator related accidents. Only half are passengers, the rest are maintenance personnel working on the machinery, and construction workers who are building shafts and fall down them.

 

[ijmad]

Older readers might remember the excellent paternoster in one of the ICI buildings in Billingham. I travelled in it several times in the late 80s, and deliberately travelled through the loft and pit just for the hell of it. I wasn't scared exactly, more apprehensive...
According to Wikipedia they are thought to be 30 times as risky as conventional elevators. Hmm.
I have read a study by the Centre for Disease Control which said that (coincidentally) 30 people on average die per year in the US in elevator related accidents. Only half are passengers, the rest are maintenance personnel working on the machinery, and construction workers who are building shafts and fall down them.

I think more than the danger factor, they are totally useless for people with wheels (wheelchairs and pushchairs), because you can't safely roll on to a moving surface. These are the primary groups you want to serve with elevators on a metro, or at least include in an all-elevator station.

Also a paternosters are quite slow, the one in The Arts Tower at University of Sheffield takes around five minutes to climb the 22 stories. This is comparable to the depth of several of the Crossrail stations. The lifts at Covent Garden tube station manage 15 stories in around 35 seconds, and these aren't even that modern. I'm not sure people would want to be in an enclosed capsule with no intervening floors for that length of time.

 

[Whattraintoday]

What's needed would probably be some form of continuously moving belt, with individual flat platform 'transports' for each person to step onto.
To allow for maximum capacity it would need to be inclined (otherwise the 'transports' would be too close vertically to stand up).
Intriguingly this would have the added advantage that those in a hurry could step from one 'transport' to the next, effectively speeding up flow even further.
Of course, that would require those who are not in a hurry to stand on the right...

 

[tbtc]

Also a paternosters are quite slow, the one in The Arts Tower at University of Sheffield takes around five minutes to climb the 22 stories

I'd recommend anyone visits Sheffield in October to watch the new batch of Students apprehensively try the Paternosters for the first time - it takes some getting used to!

Nice idea in theory - and uses two lift shafts more efficiently than two conventional lifts can (given that there are forty-something "cars" rather than just two), but there's a tricky trade off between "slow enough at each stop for people to get off/on" and "fast enough to be competitive with taking the stairs", and I'm not sure that the Sheffield ones have managed that.

Great spectator sport though - bring popcorn

(in fairness, whilst they are undeniably slower than conventional lifts, you generally aren't waiting a couple of minutes for your lift to arrive like you are at a conventional lift, so the typical waiting time needs to be factored into calculations)

 

[gordonthemoron]

Paternosters are very good at lifting heavy ordenance and were used in all of the 8 Nazi German Flak Towers

 

[duffield]

I'd recommend anyone visits Sheffield in October to watch the new batch of Students apprehensively try the Paternosters for the first time - it takes some getting used to!

Nice idea in theory - and uses two lift shafts more efficiently than two conventional lifts can (given that there are forty-something "cars" rather than just two), but there's a tricky trade off between "slow enough at each stop for people to get off/on" and "fast enough to be competitive with taking the stairs", and I'm not sure that the Sheffield ones have managed that.

Great spectator sport though - bring popcorn

(in fairness, whilst they are undeniably slower than conventional lifts, you generally aren't waiting a couple of minutes for your lift to arrive like you are at a conventional lift, so the typical waiting time needs to be factored into calculations)

I'm quite (pleasantly) surprised that there are still *any* in service in the UK**. Obviously, existing examples have not been banned as such but you would think the potential legal liabilities (as mentioned, apparently they are 30 times more dangerous than conventional lifts) would have led to the relevant institutions either removing them or relegating them to demonstration or occasional supervised use.

** Wikipedia mentions Sheffield of course but also refers to a possible instance in the Natwest Bank in Manchester, but that was from the 1990's and seems unconfirmed so I'd very much doubt it's still there. Given the recent loss of the University of Leicester example in 2017 (which I've experienced), it seems probable but not certain that the Sheffield example is now the only one operating in the UK - unless anyone knows different? It would be interesting to hear of any other reported sightings!