Could we see Australian bus body types in the UK anytime soon?

[Swanny200]

Wright haven't "went" bust though... They're in recovery and doing quite well with the future looking pretty good for them. In terms of deliveries Wright have actually delivered more Streetdecks in the past 6 months than ADL have E400s and they have a pretty busy order book, particularly for alternatively powered buses.

Because none of those manufacturers really offer a bus that's suited to the UK market. Just look at Irizar's attempts with the I3. While it may be a decent product the interior layout is not very practical, the angled floor towards the rear can create quite a slip hazard when wet and the demonstrator only had 12 forward facing step free seats. For comparison you can get double that on a E200MMC or Streetlite.

The other issue comes with reliability and aftercare. Even Volvo have had some criticism in recent years regarding poor vehicle reliability, particularly from independents when dealing with the complex engine diagnostics systems as they often have to call a Volvo technician out to solve an issue meaning the vehicle is out of use for days/weeks. There's been quite a few operators who were once loyal Volvo buyers who are now switching to far less complex and more dependable Cummins based vehicles.

MCV are probably the only Non-UK bus builder who have properly managed to get a place in the market, however it's not as if they're new to the UK, they have been around for 20 or so years and got bigger gradually over time.

Yes we don't talk about sunsundegui and their attempts, I agree about MCV, they went from a builder with a not great reputation, rehashing Marshall bus bodies to supplying the likes of Lothian, I feel in the sense of non-UK bus builders, we may see a chinese contingent eventually end up coming in, but then they did that with rolling stock a few years ago and that was not really taken upon.

You only need to look at cars and the reputation Japanese and Korean brands had 20 odd years ago to now, Hyundai for instance has one of the best tech focused cabins in their new Tuscon and has got rave reviews akin to some of the German manufacturers coupled with a decent warranty, I would assume that Japanese and Korean buses are quite heavyweight though and probably not really suited to the UK market

 

[cnjb8]

Wright haven't "went" bust though... They're in recovery and doing quite well with the future looking pretty good for them. In terms of deliveries Wright have actually delivered more Streetdecks in the past 6 months than ADL have E400s and they have a pretty busy order book, particularly for alternatively powered buses.

Because none of those manufacturers really offer a bus that's suited to the UK market. Just look at Irizar's attempts with the I3. While it may be a decent product the interior layout is not very practical, the angled floor towards the rear can create quite a slip hazard when wet and the demonstrator only had 12 forward facing step free seats. For comparison you can get double that on a E200MMC or Streetlite.

The other issue comes with reliability and aftercare. Even Volvo have had some criticism in recent years regarding poor vehicle reliability, particularly from independents when dealing with the complex engine diagnostics systems as they often have to call a Volvo technician out to solve an issue meaning the vehicle is out of use for days/weeks. There's been quite a few operators who were once loyal Volvo buyers who are now switching to far less complex and more dependable Cummins based vehicles.

MCV are probably the only Non-UK bus builder who have properly managed to get a place in the market, however it's not as if they're new to the UK, they have been around for 20 or so years and got bigger gradually over time.

But they did go bust, and you can put the StreetDeck orders down to catching up with orders

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

If we look at this topic from the Australian manufacturers end of the telescope, they will ask themselves the following questions:

“Do we want to tweak our designs to meet different regulatory compliance requirements?”

“Do we want to ship this design to the other side of the world?”

“Do we want to establish a support and supplies operation on the other side of the world?”

“Do we want to do all this to enter a market (on the other side of the world) where sales numbers are really quite small in the global scheme of things, and can have its volatile moments in terms of demand?”

And in due course, once the CEO has explored the answers to the above questions, the answer is going to be a very doubtful-sounding “Hmmmmm” at best.

~~~~~~~
Having written the above, one thing I am not at all clear on is: what is the problem that is trying to be solved here?

I’m not aware of deep dissatisfaction among operators with the current range on offer in the British market. Granted there were difficulties with the build quality of Wright products leading up to their financial collapse - some might even say these issues were early warning signs of the underlying problems that eventually emerged. Having been bought out and restructured hopefully those matters can be left in the past and the management and workforce can set about rebuilding reputation.

So I’ll ask again, what current problems are there that Australian imports would miraculously solve?

 

[markymark2000]

For your first post, at least 1 Aus manufacturer has said openly that they intend on exporting (see the news video in the quote below)

Custom speaking to Sydney 7NEWS in Oct 2020 that they intend on exporting their buses: https://twitter.com/7NewsSydney/status/1319553774805921793

While in the UK, most areas may be covered but that does not mean there is no space for competition. IF someone can provide a product better or cheaper, why shouldn't they enter the market.

There are only 2 proper manufacturers in the UK for buses. Of which ADL is linking with BYD for their electric buses and Wright are I think still living with the reputation from a few years back (and they have opted for Hydrogen). If you don't like these 2 manufacturers, your options are Hybrid buses with MCV or Yutongs electric. There is no hydrogen alternative in the UK from another company and most firms are trying to move away from hybrid and diesel buses which currently discounts MCV for future orders.

I think there is not enough competition in the UK because it's so led by the 2 main manufacturers who build buses here and otherwise it's Yutong at the moment. Custom specifically have mentioned that they want to compete with the Chinese electric buses (both electric buses in the UK are from Chinese manufacturers).



Australian imports wouldn't solve anything but I think it would introduce proper competition into the market and reduce people choosing ADL by default though lack of viable alternative. An Australian import may be better quality or cheaper. I don't know, no one knows (except the manufacturers). It would be stupid to instantly discount Australian manufacturers purely on the basis that there will be some obstacles to overcome.

 

[cnjb8]

Wright is making electric StreetDecks for Translink, they have not picked hydrogen

 

[markymark2000]

Wright is making electric StreetDecks for Translink, they have not picked hydrogen

Just because they are making them, by and large they have picked Hydrogen. Just look at their website the top menu, the second item is a dedicated page for the benefits of hydrogen. You would be in cuckoo land if you honest think they haven't picked Hydrogen. ADL are meant to be making some hydrogen buses but overall though, they have picked Electric (as proven with the amount of BYD electrics they have built)

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Indeed but the lack of a support network would be a tricky one to overcome. We've been here before with Temsa Avenues, and that's before you think of the weird oddities like these (credits to photographers) courtesy of Castrosua, Renault and Iveco

SouthWestCs-182-L55BUS(YP52CUU)-Martock-120918KNa

South West Coaches no 182 (L55 BUS, formerly YP52 CUU) Scania N94UB / Castrosua (no, me neither), former Scania demonstrator Service 52 Martock 12 September 2018 Photo by Keith Newton, posted with permission

www.flickr.com

G276VML Hornsby Travel

Renault PR100 with Northern Counties Ashby Lincolnshire 5 September 1994, originally operated by the East London and Leaside Buses subsidiaries of London Buses.

www.flickr.com

J227 OKX Filers Iveco Ford Turbo City with Alexander body (ex demonstrator) in Barnstaple May97 (Copy)

Explore focus- transport's 7019 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Going back a good few years now there were also the Turkish Dennis Dart clones. BMC Falcons (or something like that)? Stagecoach in South Wales acquired some when they absorbed Glyn Williams I believe. Stagey were so impressed that they didn’t order any more!

 

[RustySpoons]

Surely the cost and time it'd take exporting vehicles from Oz to the UK would far outweigh the benefits? Shipping wouldn't be cheap, so unless the buses are built to a low cost they'd be priced out of the market. And if they're built to a cost then there's a good chance they won't be robust enough to handle intense running on the UK roads.

Optare seem to have a select market in Australia and New Zealand though, even some second hand Solos and Versas have made it out there when they've been retired from UK fleets. Although I'm not sure if the buses bought new by operators in the Antipodes were shipped out whole or as knock down kits and built up locally. So what's to say it couldn't work the other way round?

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

For your first post, at least 1 Aus manufacturer has said openly that they intend on exporting (see the news video in the quote below)


While in the UK, most areas may be covered but that does not mean there is no space for competition. IF someone can provide a product better or cheaper, why shouldn't they enter the market.

There are only 2 proper manufacturers in the UK for buses. Of which ADL is linking with BYD for their electric buses and Wright are I think still living with the reputation from a few years back (and they have opted for Hydrogen). If you don't like these 2 manufacturers, your options are Hybrid buses with MCV or Yutongs electric. There is no hydrogen alternative in the UK from another company and most firms are trying to move away from hybrid and diesel buses which currently discounts MCV for future orders.

I think there is not enough competition in the UK because it's so led by the 2 main manufacturers who build buses here and otherwise it's Yutong at the moment. Custom specifically have mentioned that they want to compete with the Chinese electric buses (both electric buses in the UK are from Chinese manufacturers).



Australian imports wouldn't solve anything but I think it would introduce proper competition into the market and reduce people choosing ADL by default though lack of viable alternative. An Australian import may be better quality or cheaper. I don't know, no one knows (except the manufacturers). It would be stupid to instantly discount Australian manufacturers purely on the basis that there will be some obstacles to overcome.

Your Twitter link doesn’t load for me, would you be able to post a copypaste?

There is always space for competition provided it is profitable!

The choice of propulsion is perhaps worthy of its own thread, as such discussions could derail this thread. I will confine my observations to the view that hydrogen remains to be proven in the harsh and demanding operating environment of providing bus services in Britain.

 

[cnjb8]

Just because they are making them, by and large they have picked Hydrogen. Just look at their website the top menu, the second item is a dedicated page for the benefits of hydrogen. You would be in cuckoo land if you honest think they haven't picked Hydrogen. ADL are meant to be making some hydrogen buses but overall though, they have picked Electric (as proven with the amount of BYD electrics they have built)

But by building electric by Wright and hydrogen by ADL then Wright hasn't picked hydrogen and ADL electric!

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Surely the cost and time it'd take exporting vehicles from Oz to the UK would far outweigh the benefits? Shipping wouldn't be cheap, so unless the buses are built to a low cost they'd be priced out of the market. And if they're built to a cost then there's a good chance they won't be robust enough to handle intense running on the UK roads.

Agreed, indeed in the present commercial trading conditions global shipping rates are all over the place as a result of supply chain dislocation caused by... well, we can all probably guess.

 

[flymo]

Singapore and Hong Kong have large numbers of Australian-bodied buses in a fairly similar format to British buses.

I wouldn't say HK has or had large numbers, probably about 22 or 23 Volgrens. Singapore had a few more, maybe 50 or so. The 2 Volgrens that Citybus had in HK were an MAN and a Scania, the 20-odd KMB were Volvo chassis. I can speak from first hand experience that the 2 Citybus versions were good bodies but rather on the heavy side and somewhat more expensive to run. All the HK Volgren buses are now delicensed. KMB bought 20 or so which were, from memory, originally destined for Citybus but at the takeover by New World this was cancelled so that's the only reason KMB got their hands on them I think. (memory fade possible !!)

 

[hst43102]

I wouldn't say HK has or had large numbers, probably about 22 or 23 Volgrens. Singapore had a few more, maybe 50 or so. The 2 Volgrens that Citybus had in HK were an MAN and a Scania, the 20-odd KMB were Volvo chassis. I can speak from first hand experience that the 2 Citybus versions were good bodies but rather on the heavy side and somewhat more expensive to run. All the HK Volgren buses are now delicensed. KMB bought 20 or so which were, from memory, originally destined for Citybus but at the takeover by New World this was cancelled so that's the only reason KMB got their hands on them I think. (memory fade possible !!)

Thanks for the interesting information. I've never been to HK but I've traveled on the Singapore B10TL's and B10BLE's a fair bit and they are good, solid buses!

 

[JonathanH]

Australian imports wouldn't solve anything but I think it would introduce proper competition into the market and reduce people choosing ADL by default though lack of viable alternative. An Australian import may be better quality or cheaper. I don't know, no one knows (except the manufacturers). It would be stupid to instantly discount Australian manufacturers purely on the basis that there will be some obstacles to overcome.

Wouldn't Australian imports also lead to job cuts at ADL? If we could export more ADL vehicles to match the number of vehicles being imported it may be reasonable but we have been destroying manufacturing in the UK for many years. I get that trade is all about selling in both directions - are you hoping we sell more ADL vehicles to Australia?

ADL have had some success in selling vehicles in New Zealand - these look quite familiar. I note that ADL is owned by a Canadian company.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...ke-island-and-renews-new-zealand-partnership/

ADL DELIVERS ELECTRIC BUSES TO AUCKLAND’S WAIHEKE ISLAND AND RENEWS NEW ZEALAND PARTNERSHIP
Published: 10 Nov 2020

Alexander Dennis Limited (“ADL”), a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc. (“NFI”), one of the world’s largest independent global bus manufacturers, today announced that it has delivered six electric buses to Fullers360 for Auckland Transport services on Waiheke Island and that it is renewing its partnership with New Zealand manufacturer Kiwi Bus Builders.

ADL will supply an additional two electric buses to Fullers360 subsidiary Waiheke Bus Company before Christmas, allowing half of all buses on the island to be converted to zero emission operation. The Auckland Transport Waiheke Island bus network connects communities with Fullers360’s frequent ferries to the mainland.

At the launch event, attended by the Mayor of Auckland and the British Consul General in Auckland, ADL announced its renewed partnership with local manufacturer Kiwi Bus Builders. This will now include the assembly of electric buses, which for the New Zealand market had until now taken place overseas.

In addition to two-axle models like those for Waiheke Island, the partners will produce 12.6m long, three-axle electric buses, which ADL has designed for the specific requirements of bus operation in New Zealand by carrying 78 passengers without the requirement of an overweight permit, a first for New Zealand. As the country prepares to fully transition its bus fleet to zero emission vehicles by 2035, their local assembly will support up to 100 jobs at Kiwi Bus Builders.

ADL’s General Manager for New Zealand, Tony Moore, said: “We have been a major supplier to New Zealand for almost ten years and during this time have already supplied 500 vehicles with the help of our friends at Kiwi Bus Builders. As Auckland Transport and other transport authorities prepare to move to a zero emission fleet, we are renewing this partnership in a clear sign of our support for New Zealand jobs and our commitment to this market.”

Richard Drummond, Managing Director of Kiwi Bus Builders, said: “The Enviro200 range of electric buses are not only designed for our local requirements here in New Zealand, but are also built in this country. With investment in updated build techniques, we will be able to scale up our production to meet demand from Auckland and elsewhere in New Zealand as the fleet transformation gets under way ahead of the 2035 zero emissions target.”

ADL’s electric buses for New Zealand are part of the BYD ADL Enviro200EV range using latest BYD iron phosphate battery and driveline technology, which has demonstrated its reliability and efficiency in over 60,000 zero emission buses worldwide.

 

[MotCO]

Are Australian buses made to the 2.55m maximum width currently allowed in the UK. I had a feeling that they were only 2.5m wide, or was that New Zealand?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Are Australian buses made to the 2.55m maximum width currently allowed in the UK. I had a feeling that they were only 2.5m wide, or was that New Zealand?

I'd doubt it's New Zealand given there's plenty of E500s there which will be 2.55m wide?

 

[TRAX]

New Zealand is 2.50 wide max.
Enviro500s come in several different widths, and 2500 mm is one of them.

 

[Man of Kent]

New Zealand is 2.50 wide max.
Enviro500s come in several different widths, and 2500 mm is one of them.

New Zealand changed its regulations several times during the 2010s, affecting both width and axle load. By the 2019 version of their Land Transport Rules, the width had been increased from 2.5m to 2.55m. Axle loads had also been increased, prior to which some buses had had to have fewer seats to meet the rules.

See Schedule 2 on page 91 (print page 81) of this 131 page document

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/vehicle-dimensions-and-mass-2016-as-at-1-june-2019.pdf

 

[TRAX]

New Zealand changed its regulations several times during the 2010s, affecting both width and axle load. By the 2019 version of their Land Transport Rules, the width had been increased from 2.5m to 2.55m. Axle loads had also been increased, prior to which some buses had had to have fewer seats to meet the rules.

See Schedule 2 on page 91 (print page 81) of this 131 page document

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/vehicle-dimensions-and-mass-2016-as-at-1-june-2019.pdf

Thanks, I didn’t know.

 

[awsnews]

And in the news now:

Custom Denning: Element ZE bus platform set for UK in 2022 - routeone

Australian manufacturer Custom Denning has confirmed that it plans to bring its zero-emission Element single-deck bus to the UK in 2022.

www.route-one.net

Australian manufacturer Custom Denning has confirmed that it plans to bring its zero-emission Element single-deck bus to the UK. The first battery-electric demonstrator is likely to arrive in mid- to late-2022 and a hydrogen fuel cell-electric model will follow.

Custom Denning has already built six 12.5m battery-electric Australian specification Element prototypes (pictured). Production will start shortly and a prototype hydrogen fuel cell-electric model will be complete by August. The OEM is also developing the 10.2m and 11.8m platforms that Managing Director Scott Dunn says will form the UK offering. A maximum passenger capacity of around 80 is expected.

 

[markymark2000]

And in the news now:

Custom Denning: Element ZE bus platform set for UK in 2022 - routeone

Australian manufacturer Custom Denning has confirmed that it plans to bring its zero-emission Element single-deck bus to the UK in 2022.

www.route-one.net

Thank you for sharing that. Interesting given all the naysayers further upthread.

 

[cnjb8]

Thank you for sharing that. Interesting given all the naysayers further upthread.

I still stand by my points above, will this even make any change to the electric market? 2022 might be a bit too late

 

[Jordan Adam]

I still stand by my points above, will this even make any change to the electric market? 2022 might be a bit too late

Looks like a poor man's Volvo 7900H! I agree though, can't see this having much if any impact. Just look at all the hype around the BCI deckers yet any real orders are yet to be seen.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

And in the news now:

Custom Denning: Element ZE bus platform set for UK in 2022 - routeone

Australian manufacturer Custom Denning has confirmed that it plans to bring its zero-emission Element single-deck bus to the UK in 2022.

www.route-one.net

The key link here is Scott Dunn (who, of course, has a long history in the UK bus industry prior to moving "down under").

What is plainly obvious is that there is room for additional manufacturers as the market begins to pick up post-COVID, particularly if the funding to push more electric/hydrogen buses into the market actually materialises. The only options for UK-built buses are ADL, Wright and Optare/Switch, and Yutong has proven that a well-built, competitively-priced overseas-built electric bus can sell - and with sales to Go-Ahead, First, McGills, Newport, Leicestershire County Council (for Roberts and Centrebus) at least, they aren't just selling to minor operators.

 

[MotCO]

The key link here is Scott Dunn (who, of course, has a long history in the UK bus industry prior to moving "down under").

What is plainly obvious is that there is room for additional manufacturers as the market begins to pick up post-COVID, particularly if the funding to push more electric/hydrogen buses into the market actually materialises. The only options for UK-built buses are ADL, Wright and Optare/Switch, and Yutong has proven that a well-built, competitively-priced overseas-built electric bus can sell - and with sales to Go-Ahead, First, McGills, Newport, Leicestershire County Council (for Roberts and Centrebus) at least, they aren't just selling to minor operators.

You forgot Arrival - whatever lies in store for them.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The key link here is Scott Dunn (who, of course, has a long history in the UK bus industry prior to moving "down under").

What is plainly obvious is that there is room for additional manufacturers as the market begins to pick up post-COVID, particularly if the funding to push more electric/hydrogen buses into the market actually materialises. The only options for UK-built buses are ADL, Wright and Optare/Switch, and Yutong has proven that a well-built, competitively-priced overseas-built electric bus can sell - and with sales to Go-Ahead, First, McGills, Newport, Leicestershire County Council (for Roberts and Centrebus) at least, they aren't just selling to minor operators.

However perhaps a key difference with Yutong is that they're already fairly well established with good parts backup through Pelican. Especially in the coach sector where they've almost built 300 TC9 Midicoaches for the UK. Custom Denning have next to no name/brand recognition or reputation in the UK.

 

[cnjb8]

The key link here is Scott Dunn (who, of course, has a long history in the UK bus industry prior to moving "down under").

What is plainly obvious is that there is room for additional manufacturers as the market begins to pick up post-COVID, particularly if the funding to push more electric/hydrogen buses into the market actually materialises. The only options for UK-built buses are ADL, Wright and Optare/Switch, and Yutong has proven that a well-built, competitively-priced overseas-built electric bus can sell - and with sales to Go-Ahead, First, McGills, Newport, Leicestershire County Council (for Roberts and Centrebus) at least, they aren't just selling to minor operators.

Yutong began selling in a market where it's only competition was BYD ADL. It was much easier for them to make sales when there wasn't much of it. Now Custom Denning is facing competition from Yutong and BYD ADL, who have the electric market pretty solidly. The only way Custom Denning could make a foothold is if they build an electric bus at 9m for TfL contracts

However perhaps a key difference with Yutong is that they're already fairly well established with good parts backup through Pelican. Especially in the coach sector where they've almost built 300 TC9 Midicoaches for the UK. Custom Denning have next to no name/brand recognition or reputation in the UK.

Exactly. I don't see them disturbing the market too much

 

[Swanny200]

Yutong began selling in a market where it's only competition was BYD ADL. It was much easier for them to make sales when there wasn't much of it. Now Custom Denning is facing competition from Yutong and BYD ADL, who have the electric market pretty solidly. The only way Custom Denning could make a foothold is if they build an electric bus at 9m for TfL contracts

Exactly. I don't see them disturbing the market too much

But then again, nobody would have thought that BDL would have disturbed the market until they got in with ADL, if Custom Denning get in with a bigger player then they could do.

 

[MotCO]

But then again, nobody would have thought that BDL would have disturbed the market until they got in with ADL, if Custom Denning get in with a bigger player then they could do.

Such as? ADL, Wright and Switch all produce their own chassis and bodies. The only option is a European body builder, or possibly MCV.

 

[cnjb8]

But then again, nobody would have thought that BDL would have disturbed the market until they got in with ADL, if Custom Denning get in with a bigger player then they could do.

True