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Could we see direct services from Marylebone towards Milton Keynes?

AlastairFraser

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Not sure how useful OOC would be to be honest, if you did want to use HS2 you could just go to Euston, and that would interact with quite a lot so potentially cross pollinate delays? However I can see the sense in running it to Risborough for Chiltern mainline connections - it would very much connect up poorly connected Buckinghamshire - a long, thin County that barely has any public transport up that obvious spine of towns at all.

Regarding Vale Parkway, as noted above that's designed to allow the platform to fairly easily gain the missing face - that's I recall why it's got the slightly clumsy layout it has rather than the platform being on the car park side as would otherwise make more sense. (There's no other sensible reason I can think of - it's not steeply curved, for example). It's also likely to get a lot busier as more housing pops up around it.
Indeed, an extension just to Risborough would require no new infrastructure, keep it off the Chiltern Main Line and a direct link from PR to MK via Aylesbury and Winslow would be very useful for connecting with long distance trains at MKC from the High Wycombe/Beaconsfield areas without needing to travel through London, and vice versa for people from North Bucks (particularly Buckingham/Buckingham Uni students) heading towards the Thames Valley.
 
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Mgameing123

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Back-of-envelope calculations:

Princes Risborough to Aylesbury is timetabled at 16 minutes.
Aylesbury to Claydon West Junction is 11.5 miles. Including a stop at Aylesbury Vale Parkway, let's say 18 minutes.
Claydon West Junction to Milton Keynes Central is timetabled at 23 minutes.

So that's 57 minutes end-to-end. Bit too tight to run an hourly service on two units sadly, but a 90-minute interval service (which the Risborough-Aylesbury branch is for much of the day) might be doable.
What if we extended it to Marylebone or OOC?
 

Bletchleyite

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What if we extended it to Marylebone or OOC?

I've mentioned above why that would potentially be negative in terms of overcrowding in case of WCML disruption as well as cross-pollinating delays between the Chiltern line and the WCML, and just not that useful (unless you live in Winslow, but I reckon that'll just become Oxford commuterville to be honest).
 

BlueLeanie

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EEH has been campaigning for a MK-OOC service via Ayl, PR, HW for about 5 years. Surprised no-one has mentioned it in this thread. See https://eeh-prod-media.s3.amazonaws...Case_for_Northampton_to_Old_Oak_Common_v2.pdf Much more useful than to MYB.
It doesn't really make sense.

The power in Thames Valley comes from Reading, not from Old Oak Common.
There would have to be a very comprehensive and 'out there' rebuild to increase the platforms there.

It's really hard to judge on Google Maps with HW due to the multiple levels and embankments.

My thought is a brand new station on an elevated deck with level access from Totteridge Road, and escalator/lift access from the current entrance, thus maximising width available. Two island platforms that are offset with Up to the East and Down to the West. Mainline platforms that are capable of taking an eight 23 metre coach or seven 26 metre coach unit. Relief platforms that can accommodate a six 23 metre coach unit. Differing lengths to mitigate against platform curvature.

Maximising speculation

Have E-W MK shuttles terminate on the "Up" relief.
Have TfL take over Chiltern local services West of High Wycombe, contributing to the electrification from Marylebone to Wycombe. Design the Down Relief platform to be level boarding.
 

Mgameing123

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I've mentioned above why that would potentially be negative in terms of overcrowding in case of WCML disruption as well as cross-pollinating delays between the Chiltern line and the WCML, and just not that useful (unless you live in Winslow, but I reckon that'll just become Oxford commuterville to be honest).
Wycombe - Milton Keynes is also a market.
 

Bletchleyite

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Wycombe - Milton Keynes is also a market.

It is (and is a journey I've made myself!), though would risk importing delays and those people could change at Risborough and thus avoid that cross-pollination between the main Chiltern line and the WCML. (The Aylesbury line isn't much of a concern because it isn't used to anything like capacity past Amersham).

What I'm very strongly against is going to Marylebone. I'd enjoy a ride round that way, no doubt (sometimes do it by driving to Vale Parkway) but the effects of imported delays and overcrowding when the WCML was broken* would give it an overall negative effect in my view.

* Way back when, the usually fairly quiet 0711 off Bletchley would be full and standing if an Avanti was cancelled. Now imagine that effect on a 2 or 3-car DMU.
 

sad1e

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Indeed, an extension just to Risborough would require no new infrastructure, keep it off the Chiltern Main Line and a direct link from PR to MK via Aylesbury and Winslow would be very useful for connecting with long distance trains at MKC from the High Wycombe/Beaconsfield areas without needing to travel through London, and vice versa for people from North Bucks (particularly Buckingham/Buckingham Uni students) heading towards the Thames Valley.
On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni
 

Bletchleyite

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On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni

I'm not convinced there's the demand for a rail connection to Buckingham, but a specific shuttle bus to Winslow station may well have value if it turns out that the X5 is no longer commercially viable, as at least that would mean all principal destinations still reachable from there that were before.
 

cle

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Winslow and Buckingham may well be the same riders. Same with Brackley in time (along the same previous line to Banbury).

It does look to be a fast growing town though. Unsure if people would lean Oxford or MKC in demand... or London connections...
 

sad1e

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On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni
Thinking about it quite a few large towns in Buckinghamshire don't have a rail connection. Brackley , Towcester , Buckingham and Daventry.

Silverstone could also benefit from a rail connection due to its race track but i dont think silverstone has a rail connection that would be possible to reinstate.
 

zwk500

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On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni
A bit easier, not a lot. First problem would be fitting any extra services into MK without killing off the Aylesbury link (which is much more valuable, as it's a longer journey so more competitive against car and a bigger town so higher potential demand).
There's also the fact that there's an industrial estate and the bypass blocking the alignment and a cycle path using the trackbed itself.
 

A S Leib

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Buckinghamshire don't have a rail connection. Brackley , Towcester , Buckingham and Daventry.
Three of those are in Northamptonshire (which only has six stations in it at the moment – Kings Sutton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby); not that that takes away from your point.
 

sad1e

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Three of those are in Northamptonshire (which only has six stations in it at the moment – Kings Sutton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby); not that that takes away from your point.
I'm wondering if extending some Chiltern services from Aylesbury up a new line to Towcester via Silverstone and Buckingham would be worthwhile. There are quite a few disused trackbeds in the area that could Probably be partially used , the line wouldn't even to be built to that high of a speed , 75mph would be fine considering the speed of the rest of the Line from Aylesbury.
 

zwk500

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I'm wondering if extending some Chiltern services from Aylesbury up a new line to Towcester via Silverstone and Buckingham would be worthwhile. There are quite a few disused trackbeds in the area that could Probably be partially used , the line wouldn't even to be built to that high of a speed , 75mph would be fine considering the speed of the rest of the Line from Aylesbury.
It wouldn't, not least for the chasm you'd need to carve through Buckingham, or if you went around it'd be a poor offer compared to driving to MK.

A branch to Towcester from the WCML, extending the MK stopper might eventually make sense, but likely only if Hanslope becomes a much bigger town.
 

sad1e

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It wouldn't, not least for the chasm you'd need to carve through Buckingham, or if you went around it'd be a poor offer compared to driving to MK.

A branch to Towcester from the WCML, extending the MK stopper might eventually make sense, but likely only if Hanslope becomes a much bigger town.
Another extension i can think of that would be more easily doable would be Aylesbury - Brackley Via Buckingham.

If this was 25 years ago I would have hoped to see the gcml rebuilt up to rugby like Chiltern had planned before HS2 was planned. Tbh I would prefer that extension to happen over HS2 using that section on the GCML trackbed
 

stevieinselby

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It is (and is a journey I've made myself!), though would risk importing delays and those people could change at Risborough and thus avoid that cross-pollination between the main Chiltern line and the WCML. (The Aylesbury line isn't much of a concern because it isn't used to anything like capacity past Amersham).
Based on the shadow timetable, passengers will be able to get from High Wycombe to Claydon West Junction in about 50 minutes, with a 15 minute change at Bicester Village, and then on to Bletchley and Milton Keynes.
Running times from High Wycombe via Aylesbury to Claydon West Junction would likely be around 45 minutes on a direct service, or 50 minutes with a quick 5-minute connection at Princes Risborough. So unless you're running through from High Wycombe, it's unlikely to be any quicker changing at Princes Risborough for a train via Aylesbury than it is using the main services via Bicester Village.
On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni
The only place of note on East–West Rail that Buckingham doesn't already have a decent bus to is Bletchley. Winslow is a good railhead, although for passengers going on the X6 bus to Winslow then unless they are going to Bletchley then it's unlikely to be quicker than just using the direct X5 bus to their destination.
Thinking about it quite a few large towns in Buckinghamshire don't have a rail connection. Brackley , Towcester , Buckingham and Daventry.

Silverstone could also benefit from a rail connection due to its race track but i dont think silverstone has a rail connection that would be possible to reinstate.
(Pedant mode: Buckingham is the only one of those that's in Buckinghamshire, the others are all in Northamptonshire)

With Buckingham and Brackley each having a population of about 15,000, they certainly aren't insignificant, but I'm not convinced that a new rail line would be the most effective investment, largely because there isn't one obvious destination. The old route from Verney Junction via Buckingham and Brackley to Banbury is largely but not completely unobstructed, so some significant civils and/or compulsory purchase would still be needed – but I suspect people's destinations are quite widely dispersed and a lot of them won't be well served by a line going to Milton Keynes in one direction (that is no quicker than the bus) and Banbury in the other. I'm not saying the line doesn't have merit, but it would be hard to prioritise it over other lines that would be likely to carry more traffic and have a more beneficial impact on economic regeneration (which is not something desperately needed in rural Northamptonshire!).

Daventry definitely does deserve a rail connection, but the question is logistics – which one? You would struggle to get a station anywhere useful, right on the edge of town is realistically the only option. The easiest previous route to reinstate would be direct onto the West Coast Mainline at Weedon Bec, with trains down to Milton Keynes (and potentially beyond), but that misses the nearest big town which is Northampton. The surrounding area is quite hilly, which would make any new line tricky – my preferred route would be from the north-east corner of the town out along the same corridor as the canal, joining the Northampton loop just south of Long Buckby, but I can't see it happening.

Towcester is smaller, and harder to serve with any kind of useful line – and Silverstone wouldn't generate enough traffic consistently through the year to merit a dedicated line to it, and I can't see a sensible through route that would pass by.
 

AlastairFraser

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On the topic of Buckingham, wouldn't it make it a lot easier to reopen the branch to Buckingham now EWR is being built. Buckingham would really benefit from a rail connection again as it is quite a large town lacking a rail connection so there will be a decent commuter market, plus students going to and from the uni
Unfortunately it's blocked through Buckingham itself, if Brackley expanded to a significant extent and Banbury continued to expand, I can see it being viable with a Buckingham Parkway to the west, instead of the old station and an interchange station at Calvert for East West Rail.

In the interim, a Buckingham town circular extended to and from Winslow station will do fine (as another member suggested up the thread).
I'm not convinced there's the demand for a rail connection to Buckingham, but a specific shuttle bus to Winslow station may well have value if it turns out that the X5 is no longer commercially viable, as at least that would mean all principal destinations still reachable from there that were before.
I think the X5 will still survive on a reduced frequency regardless (due to the intermediate stops in Bicester and Gloucester Green being closer to the centre of Oxford in part), but the shuttle isn't a bad idea.
 

Mgameing123

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It is (and is a journey I've made myself!), though would risk importing delays and those people could change at Risborough and thus avoid that cross-pollination between the main Chiltern line and the WCML. (The Aylesbury line isn't much of a concern because it isn't used to anything like capacity past Amersham).

What I'm very strongly against is going to Marylebone. I'd enjoy a ride round that way, no doubt (sometimes do it by driving to Vale Parkway) but the effects of imported delays and overcrowding when the WCML was broken* would give it an overall negative effect in my view.

* Way back when, the usually fairly quiet 0711 off Bletchley would be full and standing if an Avanti was cancelled. Now imagine that effect on a 2 or 3-car DMU.
How can the delays actually be that bad? The train stays on the slow line between Milton Keynes and Bletchley and doesn't cross the fast lines at all. The delays that you're scared aren't going to be that bad, and you can always add crossing time at Princes Risborough or Aylesbury to combat this.
 

stevieinselby

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In the interim, a Buckingham town circular extended to and from Winslow station will do fine (as another member suggested up the thread).

I think the X5 will still survive on a reduced frequency regardless (due to the intermediate stops in Bicester and Gloucester Green being closer to the centre of Oxford in part), but the shuttle isn't a bad idea.
Arriva run the X6 every hour from Buckingham through Winslow, which offers a connection to the trains there (albeit not necessarily optimised) so I'm not sure how much need there is for a dedicated rail link bus – especially as for a lot of passengers it wouldn't be appreciably quicker than the X5.

I don't think there's much risk of the X5 disappearing – when you look at the number of other bus routes that parallel rail routes, there's clearly a market for both (and with ENCTS passholders travelling free on buses there will always be demand for them!). Have any key bus routes been lost when a parallel rail route opened elsewhere? In the Scottish Borders, the X95 between Edinburgh and Galashiels dropped from half-hourly to hourly but there doesn't seem to be any risk of it dropping any further.
 

The Planner

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How can the delays actually be that bad? The train stays on the slow line between Milton Keynes and Bletchley and doesn't cross the fast lines at all. The delays that you're scared aren't going to be that bad, and you can always add crossing time at Princes Risborough or Aylesbury to combat this.
Doesnt matter, the slows aren't empty.
 

AlastairFraser

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Arriva run the X6 every hour from Buckingham through Winslow, which offers a connection to the trains there (albeit not necessarily optimised) so I'm not sure how much need there is for a dedicated rail link bus – especially as for a lot of passengers it wouldn't be appreciably quicker than the X5.

I don't think there's much risk of the X5 disappearing – when you look at the number of other bus routes that parallel rail routes, there's clearly a market for both (and with ENCTS passholders travelling free on buses there will always be demand for them!). Have any key bus routes been lost when a parallel rail route opened elsewhere? In the Scottish Borders, the X95 between Edinburgh and Galashiels dropped from half-hourly to hourly but there doesn't seem to be any risk of it dropping any further.
I was aware of the X6/X60/60, but a dedicated rail link bus would be able to serve more of the suburban areas directly (including the University campus) and connect into the rail service.

I agree that it wouldn't be particularly quick into MK, but in the Oxford/Bicester direction, you'd save a lot of time (plus it would make further rail connections at Oxford viable, since traffic on the X5 is awful at the Oxford end especially and can really screw up a tightly planned itinerary.)

Totally agreed on the X5.
 

zwk500

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How can the delays actually be that bad? The train stays on the slow line between Milton Keynes and Bletchley and doesn't cross the fast lines at all. The delays that you're scared aren't going to be that bad, and you can always add crossing time at Princes Risborough or Aylesbury to combat this.
As a former regular user of the WCML Slows from MKC, I can assure you the slows are perfectly capable of snarling up by themselves. Adding Chiltern's problems into that will not help anything.
 

Mgameing123

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As a former regular user of the WCML Slows from MKC, I can assure you the slows are perfectly capable of snarling up by themselves. Adding Chiltern's problems into that will not help anything.
If you timetable it correctly then it can definitely work, you just need to make sure the trains arrive at Milton Keynes before a mainline slow train and depart from Milton Keynes after a mainline slow train.

Forcing people to change twice to get to High Wycombe isn't the best approach.
 

zwk500

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If you timetable it correctly then it can definitely work, you just need to make sure the trains arrive at Milton Keynes before a mainline slow train and depart from Milton Keynes after a mainline slow train.
Please, pray tell, where this reliable gap actually is, and confirm it's there all day without being reserved for a freight or similar.
Forcing people to change twice to get to High Wycombe isn't the best approach.
No, but then the railway cannot be all things to all people. Railways work in bulk, their numbers are quoted in orders of thousands. MK to High Wycombe is not a significant flow, and the potential for it to become so is low to moderate. Certainly the people who'd be using the train to get to and from Marylebone would be miffed if it was regularly turning up late because of problems that had carried down the WCML from Birmingham, Manchester etc.

Maybe once EWRs in, electrification has happened and the travel patterns have settled down, the case for this service could be revisited. But it's not sensible to put it in right at the start.
 

Bletchleyite

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Direct is better!

Don't let's turn the South East into another Castlefield, which is messed up largely by the North's obsession with hourly direct trains from everywhere to everywhere rather than simple self-contained patterns.

At least the diagrams are (and have to be) reasonably simple and self-contained.
 

stevieinselby

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Direct is better!
Sure, I'm not disputing that – if it can be achieved without significant opportunity costs to the network – but when the alternative is the false premise that you would need two changes to make the journey, that does rather undermine the argument.
 

Mgameing123

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Don't let's turn the South East into another Castlefield, which is messed up largely by the North's obsession with hourly direct trains from everywhere to everywhere rather than simple self-contained patterns.

At least the diagrams are (and have to be) reasonably simple and self-contained.
Well really the service is just an extension of the former Marylebone - Aylesbury via Wycombe service.

You guys are overexaggerating the delays!
 

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