Could we see more of Stadlers “METRO” family ordered in the UK?

[RacsoMoquette]

Hello all. I was wondering seeing as Southeastern has put out a tender out for new rolling stock, and it has been out since 2022 I believe it should be soon the time for an announcement regarding which manufacturer has won the bid. First of all Siemens have discontinued production of the Desiro City range on 2018, or could see more orders from CAF or Alstom with a Civity akin to the Class 331 or a new Aventra class. To me I think Stadler is the most likely to win as they can offer the “METRO” design akin to the Class 777s which would be ideal for South London commuter routes replacing the knackerd 465s. Also if I remember correctly, a franchise receives bonus points if they order a product with extra features, so in Stadlers Case, Level Boarding. Who Knows maybe more variants of the FLIRT family may enter service with Scotrail, Northern or GWR (Tenders have also been announced by said companies) the dual or tri mode capabilities may prove very useful, let alone Level Boarding as Standard!

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any way we can get these built in Derby?

Apart from level boarding, what other features of a 777 would make them better than something like a 701?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Stadler is not Alstom and They do not build in Derby Litchurch Lane.

The Mersyrail Class 777s we’re build at both Alterhein (Switzerland) and Sideice (Poland) ( Odd numberd units the former and even the latter.

I think the Stadler ”METRO” Family would be a good competitor to the Aventra, due to the latter housing Level Boarding, Real updating train location diagrams located above the door apiture, while the Aventra does not bear these utilities.

 

[Energy]

First of all Siemens have discontinued production of the Desiro City range on 2018

They haven't, it's still available on their website.

or could see more orders from CAF or Alstom with a Civity akin to the Class 331 or a new Aventra class

CAF will almost certainly bid with a Civity variant, and Alstom will likely bid with a version of their upcoming Adessia (not dissimilar to Aventra).

if they order a product with extra features, so in Stadlers Case, Level Boarding.

Level boarding may not be unique, other tenders including Northern prioritise it so I'd expect more manufacturers to offer it.

Also if I remember correctly, a franchise receives bonus points if they order a product with extra features, so in Stadlers Case, Level Boarding.

Not quite, franchises do not exist and Southeastern is run by the DfT/OLR, not a private company.

When tenders are issued part of it is marking criteria used to grade bids. The winning bid is decided on using this criteria. Minimum speed, acceleration, capacity, and whatnot are effectively mandatory with bids being heavily marked down if they fail to achieve these requirements, while other requirements like price, previous experience, and local benefit may also be deciding factors.

Its difficult to say who is likely to win without knowing the marking criteria, if Southeastern favours a proven platform that they already know then the Desiro City has a strong chance, especially if they can be built in Goole, UK. I'd be surprised if Stadler win as they'll struggle on price, and the class 777 has hardly been a massive success so far.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

However the Class 777s on Merseyrail are still abysmal performers, with outrageous reliability still continuing to April 2024. So in terms of reliability ( Although still poor) the Aventras suffice.

 

[Snow1964]

Hello all. I was wondering seeing as Southeastern has put out a tender out for new rolling stock, and it has been out since 2022 I believe it should be soon the time for an announcement regarding which manufacturer has won the bid.

Things move slowly when there is Government money backing it, probably won't be an order announcement until 2025 (maybe late 2024 but that rather depends on Government in power).

First of all Siemens have discontinued production of the Desiro City range on 2018,

They renamed the UK version Desiro verve. If they got the order then initial ones likely to be built in Vienna, although depending on timing and tube train production, part of any order might be built at Goole

or could see more orders from CAF or Alstom with a Civity akin to the Class 331 or a new Aventra class.

Both could be potentially offer variation of something existing. Alstom has a new platform name (Adessia) but could be similar bodyshells to Aventra, but with parts from other Adessia builds

To me I think Stadler is the most likely to win as they can offer the “METRO” design akin to the Class 777s which would be ideal for South London commuter routes replacing the knackerd 465s. Also if I remember correctly, a franchise receives bonus points if they order a product with extra features, so in Stadlers Case, Level Boarding.

All the manufacturers have designs with retractable steps and floors of different heights. Of course adapting to UK platform height is possible (but if SE trains is allowed to spend to actually get this is an unknown)

Who Knows maybe more variants of the FLIRT family may enter service with Scotrail, Northern or GWR (Tenders have also been announced by said companies) the dual or tri mode capabilities may prove very useful, let alone Level Boarding as Standard!

Anything is possible with threat to nationalise the railways, even picking best offer and having huge framework agreement covering two or more current operators.

Its rather hard to predict what the thinking will be in 2025, only those with a politics crystal ball might have inkling how it will actually pan out.

 

[JonathanH]

Stadler is not Alstom and They do not build in Derby Litchurch Lane.

Yes obviously. The point I am making is that you are proposing we buy imported trains when we have factories in the UK with empty order books on the basis of a single design feature. If there are features of a Stadler product which are desirable, then say what they are and see if it can be built in a British factory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Level boarding may not be unique, other tenders including Northern prioritise it so I'd expect more manufacturers to offer it.

Worth noting that the first UK train to offer level boarding was the London Underground S-stock, a Bombardier (now Alstom) product. If you were looking for trains for the south London commuter services, something like that would be about perfect, they aren't really any different in concept from the Metropolitan Line (apart from the less salubrious nature of some of their customers).

 

[stevieinselby]

However the Class 777s on Merseyrail are still abysmal performers, with outrageous reliability still continuing to April 2024. So in terms of reliability ( Although still poor) the Aventras suffice.

How are the 701s coming along?

 

[DanNCL]

Alstom/Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and CRRC all have level boarding designs for standard UK height platforms. All four of them submitted compliant bids for the Tyne & Wear Metro contract which had level boarding as a requirement.

Siemens didn’t make the shortlist but that’s not necessarily to say they didn’t offer level boarding themselves.

Worth noting that the first UK train to offer level boarding was the London Underground S-stock, a Bombardier (now Alstom) product. If you were looking for trains for the south London commuter services, something like that would be about perfect, they aren't really any different in concept from the Metropolitan Line (apart from the less salubrious nature of some of their customers).

S Stock wasn’t the first UK train offer level boarding. The first to offer it at standard UK height platforms were the original Tyne & Wear Metro fleet, both the 1979-1981 production fleet and the two prototypes from 1975, and they’ve been running on the National Network since 2002. Every DLR unit has also had level boarding so S Stock wasn’t even the first London fleet to have it, just the first LU stock to have it, and the first non-articulated stock to have it.

 

[Energy]

Alstom/Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and CRRC all have level boarding designs for standard UK height platforms. All four of them submitted compliant bids for the Tyne & Wear Metro contract which had level boarding as a requirement.

These have a much lower top speed. Offering a light rail option with level boarding is much easier as the lower speed allows the smaller wheels so no need for a changing height floor.

 

[DanNCL]

These have a much lower top speed. Offering a light rail option with level boarding is much easier as the lower speed allows the smaller wheels so no need for a changing height floor.

No different to the S Stock referenced in the post I was replying too.

 

[Trainbike46]

These have a much lower top speed. Offering a light rail option with level boarding is much easier as the lower speed allows the smaller wheels so no need for a changing height floor.

This is the key difference between the Stadler METRO (which has the smaller wheels you mention) and the Stadler FLIRT (which has standard sized wheels, with a higher floor above the bogies)

Both are available with level boarding though

I'm sure every manufacturer could come up with a level boarding design for the UK mainline railway if the contracts required it, and I believe they should require it, to aid with accessibility and improve the experience for people with suitcases, buggies etc.