County Lines Drug Dealing and the Railway

[Egg Centric]

Is there a bit in your research about the moral panic around drug use resulting in its continual criminalisation? Because that’s the root cause of all this, really.

Working to end that is the only functional tactic anyone can use to combat the human costs of criminalisation. Anything else is just like having your foot caught in a trap and trying to free it by painting your toenails.

Undoubtedly drugs should be legal for all sorts of reasons. County lines however victimise the often underage or otherwise vulnerable sellers and it's perfectly legit to want to discourage those operations as much as possible.

Randomly lecturing someone doing research into the subject who presumably (I say this on a statistical basis given they are interested in substance policy) agrees with my first sentence is unhelpful.

 

[paul1609]

It’s a plague….. DOO in certain areas where I drive(London metro) has helped it grow exponentially. It’s often done in broad daylight …. But on the positive side they almost all have tickets just in case there’s a block on so that they don’t get stopped so at least their paying

Can't see how DOO affects it tbh, yesterday I travelled from Barnsley to Appledore (Kent) 4 trains and the only time my ticket was examined was by the barriers at St Pancras. The only member of staff I saw was a tea trolley that rushed past just after Leicester.

 

[TurbineEnginee]

Last time I made a call concerned about the strong smell of cannabis from a particular carriage, a lone officer boarded at darlington, clutching his gilet in a rather cliche way, took an obviously big sniff, shrugged his shoulders, proclaimed it was a vape and walked off the carriage....

When I made the initial call and suggested they would need a dog that was certainly not what i was expecting!

Still criminalising cannabis? What a ridiculous waste of time.

Apparently the officer agreed.

 

[Gathursty]

Is there a bit in your research about the moral panic around drug use resulting in its continual criminalisation? Because that’s the root cause of all this, really.

Working to end that is the only functional tactic anyone can use to combat the human costs of criminalisation. Anything else is just like having your foot caught in a trap and trying to free it by painting your toenails.

I accept to some extent this thought for lower classed drugs but there is no medicinal benefit of heroin, crack cocaine, ketamine, fentanyl, ecstasy or crystal meth. Dealers of these drugs need to be imprisoned and put on a register.

There is some empathy from me regarding cannabis and marijuana as there probably are medicinal benefits to it in some situations.

Can you please clarify which drugs you'd like to decrimialise?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Still criminalising cannabis? What a ridiculous waste of time.

Apparently the officer agreed.

Im not criminalising anything, merely following their proceedure and my concerns and observations

And with that attitude and behaviour, you wonder why traincrew dont take BTP seriously. I certainly wont be wasting my time or delay the train if thats the response I am going to get...

 

[GusB]

I accept to some extent this thought for lower classed drugs but there is no medicinal benefit of heroin, crack cocaine, ketamine, fentanyl, ecstasy or crystal meth. Dealers of these drugs need to be imprisoned and put on a register.

There is some empathy from me regarding cannabis and marijuana as there probably are medicinal benefits to it in some situations.

Can you please clarify which drugs you'd like to decrimialise?

This is probably a General Discussion thread, to be honest, but the decriminalising of drugs doesn't actually make them legal. Heroin, in its legal form, does have medical benefits as a painkiller. Ketamine is used in similar circumstances; have you watched Helicopter ER, or similar programmes? The jury's out on ecstasy; I've read articles that suggest it may have benefits for people with conditions such as Parkinson's disease as well as some psychiatric conditions. I'd agree with you that crack and meth probably don't have much use.

Regardless, decriminalising the personal use of a bit of weed frees up resources for the police to go after the stuff that's really harmful. If you want to go up against really harmful drugs, perhaps you should look at banning alcohol and tobacco too; I wish you the best of luck with that!

 

[Meerkat]

Regardless, decriminalising the personal use of a bit of weed frees up resources for the police to go after the stuff that's really harmful.

If you talk to people who work in mental health they certainly don't think cannabis is harmless.
I really hope they dont legalise smoking it - public spaces already reek of the awful stench.

 

[godfreycomplex]

And with that attitude and behaviour, you wonder why traincrew dont take BTP seriously. I certainly wont be wasting my time or delay the train if thats the response I am going to get...

Not just train crew, time and again they cause more problems than they solve on the signalling/control side. I realise the reasons for this are diverse, but I think the general point stands (although if the smell of cannabis on a train is deemed reportable because it may cause positive drug tests in train crew, better drug testing for train crew is the answer)

I accept to some extent this thought for lower classed drugs but there is no medicinal benefit of heroin, crack cocaine, ketamine, fentanyl, ecstasy or crystal meth. Dealers of these drugs need to be imprisoned and put on a register.

There is some empathy from me regarding cannabis and marijuana as there probably are medicinal benefits to it in some situations.

Can you please clarify which drugs you'd like to decrimialise?

I agree with GusB that this is probably a general discussion thread, but this article’s a good introduction - https://amp.theguardian.com/news/20...licy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

Undoubtedly drugs should be legal for all sorts of reasons. County lines however victimise the often underage or otherwise vulnerable sellers and it's perfectly legit to want to discourage those operations as much as possible.

Randomly lecturing someone doing research into the subject who presumably (I say this on a statistical basis given they are interested in substance policy) agrees with my first sentence is unhelpful.

I wasn’t as such trying to lecture the OP, but I don’t think any solution other than decriminalisation is likely to be effective

 

[Meerkat]

I wasn’t as such trying to lecture the OP, but I don’t think any solution other than decriminalisation is likely to be effective

Decriminalisation isn’t a solution, it’s just giving up.

 

[Skipness]

Last year I became concerned about a young person on the station for some considerable time. Saw a pcso who agreed to investigate. Turned out to be an autistic person who was unable to return home with his family in car because of travel sickness. He was able to produce a travel ticket, but certainly gave the impression of being “vulnerable”.

 

[Dave W]

My interactions with county lines were exclusively on Thameslink services before and in the less-restrictive periods of the pandemic, usually the Sutton Loop but a couple of times on a Brighton. For all the talk upthread about not being criminal masterminds, the instructions from the ringleaders - who are running significant, organised operations by the way - look pretty intelligent to me: don't all board at once, don't attract attention, stay away from crowded sections.

Sitting in declassified first on the 700s (back in the day before now where it's increasingly - and annoyingly! - been clocked by punters), I would watch with bemusement as a different young lad would successively board at every station between St Pancras and, say, Herne Hill. They'd never sit together, would draw zero attention to themselves and would sit in "first", away from others (except me, obviously). They'd all be carrying square-ish shoulder bags, and generally be dressed in dark, non-descript clothing. Then as the train approached the outer reaches of the route, the reverse would occur, one by one they'd get off. The peculiarity of seeing this play out on more than one occasion (once could just be a weird coincidence!) has always stuck with me.

 

[185143]

I'm surprised I never got stopped when I was younger. I'd always be travelling about with a backpack, often a good way from home. The vast majority of the time with tickets paid for in cash, getting off at random places all the time.

Obviously I never had anything to hide, and had I ever been stopped, I'd have understood why. Though I was well known (for the right reasons!) In my local area by staff, and had indeed been approached by BTP who knew my hobby while travelling home from school ensuring I knew about 61016.

Though I'm quite distinctive and I'd usually have had a rover or season ticket. I remember getting on a Cumbrian Coast bound 156 years ago and being asked by the guard "which request stop today?" As he'd recognised me and my rover from earlier in the week!

 

[Meerkat]

I'm surprised I never got stopped when I was younger. I'd always be travelling about with a backpack, often a good way from home. The vast majority of the time with tickets paid for in cash, getting off at random places all the time.

Obviously I never had anything to hide, and had I ever been stopped, I'd have understood why. Though I was well known (for the right reasons!) In my local area by staff, and had indeed been approached by BTP who knew my hobby while travelling home from school ensuring I knew about 61016.

Though I'm quite distinctive and I'd usually have had a rover or season ticket. I remember getting on a Cumbrian Coast bound 156 years ago and being asked by the guard "which request stop today?" As he'd recognised me and my rover from earlier in the week!

I think this may be a bit like when one doesn't get searched at the football - one can take it as a bit of an insult!

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm surprised I never got stopped when I was younger. I'd always be travelling about with a backpack, often a good way from home. The vast majority of the time with tickets paid for in cash, getting off at random places all the time.

Obviously I never had anything to hide, and had I ever been stopped, I'd have understood why. Though I was well known (for the right reasons!) In my local area by staff, and had indeed been approached by BTP who knew my hobby while travelling home from school ensuring I knew about 61016.

Though I'm quite distinctive and I'd usually have had a rover or season ticket. I remember getting on a Cumbrian Coast bound 156 years ago and being asked by the guard "which request stop today?" As he'd recognised me and my rover from earlier in the week!

But how many Years ago was that?
County Lines and their problems are a reasonably recent "thing".

 

[Broucek]

Saw a few of those at Cambridge last night.

'Look closer', but of course remember not to stare at people while you're doing it, as the other posters on the station tell you you're not allowed to do that......

Perhaps the drug trade will improve its diversity and inclusion by hiring more female mules in the light of this...

 

[Meerkat]

Perhaps the drug trade will improve its diversity and inclusion by hiring more female mules in the light of this...

Use white pensioners. They wont get stopped, like a trip to the seaside/countryside, and are at much less risk of getting locked up

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps the drug trade will improve its diversity and inclusion by hiring more female mules in the light of this...

I know your post is tongue-in-cheek but young girls are already used extensively by drugs gangs, as they are incredibly vulnerable to other forms of making money through abuse (sex work/pornography chief among them).

 

[185143]

But how many Years ago was that?
County Lines and their problems are a reasonably recent "thing".

Within the last ten.

But yes, I agree it's become a much bigger issue more recently.

 

[lachlan]

I got stopped by county lines officers once at Inverness. Was returning to the station after having arrived there in the morning, gone to Beauly and come back.

I remember them saying "You've been on a lot of trains today, why is that? Have you heard of County Lines?"

I didn't know what it was at the time so just showed them my disabled persons pass and said I was riding trains for fun (which was the truth) and had just gone for lunch in Beauly and came back

They let me go but followed me on the train as I had said I was from Aberdeen and had boarded a central belt-bound train. Had to then explain to them I was wanting to do a loop and return via Perth. The woman basically said they will let me go but I should keep in mind that I looked suspicious.

They seemed confused that someone would be riding trains just for fun

 

[185143]

I got stopped by county lines officers once at Inverness. Was returning to the station after having arrived there in the morning, gone to Beauly and come back.

I remember them saying "You've been on a lot of trains today, why is that? Have you heard of County Lines?"

I didn't know what it was at the time so just showed them my disabled persons pass and said I was riding trains for fun (which was the truth) and had just gone for lunch in Beauly and came back

They let me go but followed me on the train as I had said I was from Aberdeen and had boarded a central belt-bound train. Had to then explain to them I was wanting to do a loop and return via Perth. The woman basically said they will let me go but I should keep in mind that I looked suspicious.

They seemed confused that someone would be riding trains just for fun

I dread to think what they'd have made of me last time I was in Inverness then!

Got off the Sleeper, stood having a catch up with one of the staff I know there for a bit before going for a 'Spoons breakfast. Then back to the station for a train to Inverness Airport and back. Another quick chat with my pal, mainly for a pub reccomendation or three before coming back to catch at mid afternoon train to Glasgow.

 

[bramling]

Still criminalising cannabis? What a ridiculous waste of time.

Not really, as it’s an offence to smoke on a train.

My place gets a lot of this with people smoking in the seats immediately behind the cabs, and with many drivers if the police failed to take action then the train wouldn’t be moving. Many people find the smell highly unpleasant in itself.

It’s bad enough many towns now reek during the evening, we really don’t need same on trains.

I got stopped by county lines officers once at Inverness. Was returning to the station after having arrived there in the morning, gone to Beauly and come back.

I remember them saying "You've been on a lot of trains today, why is that? Have you heard of County Lines?"

I didn't know what it was at the time so just showed them my disabled persons pass and said I was riding trains for fun (which was the truth) and had just gone for lunch in Beauly and came back

They let me go but followed me on the train as I had said I was from Aberdeen and had boarded a central belt-bound train. Had to then explain to them I was wanting to do a loop and return via Perth. The woman basically said they will let me go but I should keep in mind that I looked suspicious.

They seemed confused that someone would be riding trains just for fun

I wonder how in practice they expect someone to “keep in mind” that they might look suspicious?

 

[route101]

I am sure I seen it on coach services even in a remote place such as Campbeltown. A guy cycled up to the coach which was arriving from Glasgow and took a package from a guy who got off the coach.

 

[DerekC]

I accept to some extent this thought for lower classed drugs but there is no medicinal benefit of heroin, crack cocaine, ketamine, fentanyl, ecstasy or crystal meth. Dealers of these drugs need to be imprisoned and put on a register.

There is some empathy from me regarding cannabis and marijuana as there probably are medicinal benefits to it in some situations.

Can you please clarify which drugs you'd like to decrimialise?

It's not about medicinal benefit. It's about creating an income stream that funds the development of organised crime. Read the history of prohibition in the USA. By some accounts it tripled organised crime - and that only lasted thirteen years. from 1920 to 1933. Until 1964, although the distribution of hard drugs in the UK was illegal, doctors were allowed to prescribe morphine and similar drugs to registered addicts and illegal use remained low. So we have been trying to stamp out drug use for almost sixty years and have only succeeded in creating a monster which funds criminal gangs who commit murder to maintain their local market share and (getting back towards the topic) exploit and abuse children to support their business model. I wish people wouldn't get themselves addicted - but it's clear that trying to stop it makes the problem worse.

 

[Meerkat]

but it's clear that trying to stop it makes the problem worse.

How do you know that - what are you comparing it to?

 

[Lloyds siding]

Use white pensioners. They wont get stopped, like a trip to the seaside/countryside, and are at much less risk of getting locked up

I am a white pensioner, but due to insufficient pension, I still so some work. I was travelling to a council estate in Liverpool for the next stint of door-knocking. I went along the main road, and exceeded the speed limit a little bit to get past a complete plonker (it was the safest option imho). I noticed that I was followed off the main road by another equally fast car as I turned into the council estate, after a short while the unmarked police car but his blue lights and pulled me up. We had a quick chat about my speeding, but then he wanted to know what I was doing there...I had all my paperwork so he was satisfied. Nice to know that I can be stopped and questioned despite the white hair, age, anonymous car, etc.

 

[Starmill]

A lot of it comes down to if the person stands out. Someone travelling a very long way to a station which is not a popular destination with a paper ticket paid for in cash is not a common thing to happen. If there's a younger person travelling alone to a small town they'll reach late at night with such a ticket then that would be even more unusual. Of course there's absolutely nothing to suggest that someone doing that alone has at any point done anything wrong, but the fact that they stand out is what starts enquiries. For example a young man with heavy bags who looks about 16 using an Anytime Single from Chester to March on the last train from Peterborough might be worth asking if they live in March. If they seem very uncomfortable with the question then that would be a likely line of enquiries. Someone who actually lived there would simply say yes, or something like "my grandma is picking me up there".

 

[magpiespy]

Can't see how DOO affects it tbh, yesterday I travelled from Barnsley to Appledore (Kent) 4 trains and the only time my ticket was examined was by the barriers at St Pancras. The only member of staff I saw was a tea trolley that rushed past just after Leicester.

By way of contrast, Manchester to Keighley via Bradford return yesterday : six barrier checks and at least 3 onboard ticket checks that I recall.

 

[bramling]

A lot of it comes down to if the person stands out. Someone travelling a very long way to a station which is not a popular destination with a paper ticket paid for in cash is not a common thing to happen. If there's a younger person travelling alone to a small town they'll reach late at night with such a ticket then that would be even more unusual. Of course there's absolutely nothing to suggest that someone doing that alone has at any point done anything wrong, but the fact that they stand out is what starts enquiries. For example a young man with heavy bags who looks about 16 using an Anytime Single from Chester to March on the last train from Peterborough might be worth asking if they live in March. If they seem very uncomfortable with the question then that would be a likely line of enquiries. Someone who actually lived there would simply say yes, or something like "my grandma is picking me up there".

What would happen if the response was simply “mind your own business?”.

I’m in two minds on all this. I get that there’s a need to detect crime, however I’m not particularly comfortable with people being singled out and having to explain their legitimate lawful business.

 

[XAM2175]

I wonder how in practice they expect someone to “keep in mind” that they might look suspicious?

I expect that it's meant more in the sense of "don't be surprised if you're asked again".

 

[Meerkat]

What would happen if the response was simply “mind your own business?”.

I’m in two minds on all this. I get that there’s a need to detect crime, however I’m not particularly comfortable with people being singled out and having to explain their legitimate lawful business.

I would be a bit more polite than that or you might fail the attitude test and just get delayed debating it.
I got stopped by the police for yawning once.

oh and for walking in the snow another time….but that was admittedly at 2am on a weekday