Court hearing for not being able to print ticket at station

[simplysam]

Hi All
Travelled by train in summer and booked the ticket the previous night on Trainline.
Regularly travel to London and use the E-ticket function on their app and then Apple Pay for the tube. However on this day of travel i went to print out ticket at station but needed my bank card, which i did not carry (habits of Apple Pay!)
Guard said no problem print it at Waterloo once you are through the barrier, at Waterloo I explained this at the barrier but was told I was travelling without ticket, even though I could show him my Trainline receipt and bank outgoings

Eventually get a fine, and through the barriers where the lady at the desk lets me happily print ticket out and could not see their need to enforce...

Cut to a few letters back and forth with SWR explaining I had not avoided anything and had a valid ticket for travel, they disagreed and I ended up with court summons letter!!
Out of all the sheer ridiculousness of it all, I just pleaded guilty via post to save the aggravation of time and money to travel to London to plead that I was infact travelling with a ticket, just stupidly didn't have the ability to meet their requirements to print it off... receive a letter back saying you have a great defence and potentially not guilty (along them lines)... annoyingly now have to go in and take a day off work, ah well.
If you got this far, thank you
I just want to ask if anyone has been in similar situation, and if maybe i am just naïve and don't actually have a defence!!

Thanks

 

[some bloke]

annoyingly now have to go in and take a day off work

Not necessarily - if you have a great defence you may now be able to explain better to the company. They can drop the case at any time before the hearing.

Are you saying the court told you that in light of your submission the case is being sent for a full hearing?

It sounds like

a) you may have given the wrong defence

b) you had no valid ticket but

c) you can argue that the guard gave permission to travel.

And the company would need to, at least in theory, prove the case beyond reasonable doubt.

If you upload the correspondence with identifying details removed, people can advise.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Cut to a few letters back and forth with SWR explaining I had not avoided anything and had a valid ticket for travel, they disagreed and I ended up with court summons letter!!

Booking confirmation/bank statement/whatever does not count as a valid ticket for travel unfortunately, regardless of what the guard had told you.

You are required to hold a valid ticket before boarding a train, if you intend to travel.

 

[some bloke]

If you're charged under Byelaw 18 and a court accepts that on the balance of probabilities "an authorised person gave [you] permission to travel without a valid ticket" - see 18(3) -

Railway byelaws

www.gov.uk

there is no case to answer. So you would try to get the company to drop the case before the hearing date.

If you're charged with intent to avoid a fare, your claim that there was permission from the guard combined with the evidence of purchase may make prosecution less appealing to the company. It isn't obvious how intent could be beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[MrJeeves]

regardless of what the guard had told you

But the guard's statement constitutes permission to travel from a member of railway staff, which exempts the OP from such requirements in this specific scenario, to the extent dictated by the guard.

 

[gabrielhj07]

But the guard's statement constitutes permission to travel from a member of railway staff, which exempts the OP from such requirements in this specific scenario, to the extent dictated by the guard.

How easy would it be to prove that seeing as any body cam footage would be from months ago?

 

[AlterEgo]

Lots of questions to ask here, this isn’t a simple case at all.

Guard said no problem print it at Waterloo once you are through the barrier, at Waterloo I explained this at the barrier but was told I was travelling without ticket, even though I could show him my Trainline receipt and bank outgoings

Did you explain this to the barrier staff? if so, what did they say?

Eventually get a fine, and through the barriers where the lady at the desk lets me happily print ticket out and could not see their need to enforce...

What do you mean by “a fine” here? What *exactly* were you given, and did you pay this fine? Was it a penalty fare? Were you put under caution? Did you make any admissions or sign any statement?

Cut to a few letters back and forth with SWR explaining I had not avoided anything and had a valid ticket for travel, they disagreed and I ended up with court summons letter!!

Please post all the correspondence you and SWR and the court have sent, redacting all personal details. Getting on top of the detail here is crucial.

Out of all the sheer ridiculousness of it all, I just pleaded guilty via post to save the aggravation of time and money to travel to London to plead that I was infact travelling with a ticket, just stupidly didn't have the ability to meet their requirements to print it off...

So you pleaded guilty to this criminal offence then?

receive a letter back saying you have a great defence and potentially not guilty (along them lines)...

who sent this? Who has refused your guilty plea?

But the guard's statement constitutes permission to travel from a member of railway staff, which exempts the OP from such requirements in this specific scenario, to the extent dictated by the guard.

It’s up to the OP to show this actually happened on the balance of probabilities. How do they propose doing so?

 

[some bloke]

It’s up to the OP to show this actually happened on the balance of probabilities. How do they propose doing so?

Perhaps by seeming credible, and by seeming to show that scenarios involving guilt are less credible.

It seems to me that there can be a conflict between the need to prove the exception, and the overall need for the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. I can't see how the second could be properly overridden.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps by seeming credible, and by seeming to show that scenarios involving guilt are less credible.

It seems to me that there can be a conflict between the need to prove the exception, and the overall need for the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. I can't see how the second could be properly overridden.

I suppose the he said she said scenario counterpoint is this from the defence.

“Why would the guard tell you to travel without a ticket, knowing you had a barrier to get through at the end, and give you no proof of authority to travel at all? This would be a recipe for trouble, no?”

I’m not going to suggest the OP tries that in court. We need to see all the correspondence first because we have the slightly incredulous situation where he has apparently already pleaded guilty, yet someone (who?) has written back saying “no no no we won’t have that, you have a defence, come try it in court”.

 

[MrJeeves]

I do think that, in this case, the interesting thing is that the guard told them to print their TOD at Waterloo. Surely this would also not be possible since, as far as I'm aware, a bank card cannot simply materialise in your pocket on a train journey? Of course, collecting it at a staffed ticket office is a possibility, with photo ID matching the booking details.

In the past, I have always Twitter DM'ed GTR who have granted authority to travel without collected TOD in some situations (almost always due to TVM faults, though). I always try to go through a social media route so that I have proof that such permission was granted, however.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I do think that, in this case, the interesting thing is that the guard told them to print their TOD at Waterloo. Surely this would also not be possible since, as far as I'm aware, a bank card cannot simply materialise in your pocket on a train journey? Of course, collecting it at a staffed ticket office is a possibility, with photo ID matching the booking details.

In the past, I have always Twitter DM'ed GTR who have granted authority to travel without collected TOD in some situations (almost always due to TVM faults, though). I always try to go through a social media route so that I have proof that such permission was granted, however.

All depends if the Worldline system at Waterloo is set up to only issue with the card or if that feature is turned off.

 

[island]

I’m not going to suggest the OP tries that in court. We need to see all the correspondence first because we have the slightly incredulous situation where he has apparently already pleaded guilty, yet someone (who?) has written back saying “no no no we won’t have that, you have a defence, come try it in court”.

It may be that the OP sent in what is legally classed as an "equivocal guilty plea" (you can read more about these on Google) by expressing, for example, that they feel they did not commit the offence charged but are going to plead guilty "to get it over with".

The court has the right (or even the duty) to reject an equivocal guilty plea, and the prosecutor has the duty to advise the court to do so if they become aware of one.

We shall have to wait and see whether the OP replies.

 

[Harold Hill]

The OP might wish to reconsider his relationship with technology.

 

[deltic]

The OP might wish to reconsider his relationship with technology.

Or maybe the railway should reconsider it's relationship with its customers?

 

[Harold Hill]

For sure, they certainly should.

 

[simplysam]

It may be that the OP sent in what is legally classed as an "equivocal guilty plea" (you can read more about these on Google) by expressing, for example, that they feel they did not commit the offence charged but are going to plead guilty "to get it over with".

The court has the right (or even the duty) to reject an equivocal guilty plea, and the prosecutor has the duty to advise the court to do so if they become aware of one.

We shall have to wait and see whether the OP replies.

Spot on. I believe this is what had happened.
I stated the facts that countered each argument of theirs and attached evidence to show a ticket was purchased, also their claim that i didn’t appeal was wholly untrue, again providing proof. I finished saying that ultimately I didn’t see any wrong doing from myself, but did not want the hassle of having to head to court （2 hours away from home)

Update.
They have withdrawn the case

 

[30907]

Spot on. I believe this is what had happened.
I stated the facts that countered each argument of theirs and attached evidence to show a ticket was purchased, also their claim that i didn’t appeal was wholly untrue, again providing proof. I finished saying that ultimately I didn’t see any wrong doing from myself, but did not want the hassle of having to head to court （2 hours away from home)

Update.
They have withdrawn the case

Thanks for letting us know. As well as being good news for you, it adds to the store of information available to forum members - I for one (not being legally trained) had never heard of an equivocal plea, and I don't think such a circumstance has occurred before.

 

[RJ]

The OP might wish to reconsider his relationship with technology.

To be fair, torrents of people come to the ticket office to print their tickets because they bought online with Apple Pay or a virtual card or whatever and don't have a card with them. Having to carry a card to print the ticket out is a layer of complexity that a lot of people can't work with, so it stands to reason that there should be bit of discretion in these circumstances.

 

[Skiddaw]

Glad it was sorted.

It's so variable isn't it? I had a similar experience quite recently when travelling from Penrith to Carlisle, where I thought I'd opted for an E ticket but for some reason my (Avanti) app had defaulted to a 'collect at station' ticket. I didn't notice until guard was checking tickets on the train. Thankfully, she was fine about it and very kindly printed out my ticket for me. I was extremely grateful to her (as I say so often, with very few exceptions all the Avanti staff I've ever encountered have been lovely).

 

[swt_passenger]

This is, however, yet another example where the train guard put the passenger into a risky situation, because there is no way of proving to the barrier staff at Waterloo that permission was given. If guards are going to allow such travel they really do need to provide some sort of authorisation form?

 

[[.n]]

This is, however, yet another example where the train guard put the passenger into a risky situation, because there is no way of proving to the barrier staff at Waterloo that permission was given. If guards are going to allow such travel they really do need to provide some sort of authorisation form?

The gate staff / RPI at Waterloo do seem to be a particular problem - amongst the many stupid incidents I recall once having to argue for ages with a member of staff (RPI) that I should be allowed to go to the ticket office to purchase my ticket, having travelled without a ticket, with the permission of the guard on my train. I refused to accept a Penalty Fare or any other solution, other than the RPI selling me the ticket I requested. The RPI wouldn't back down - now obviously I can see some people saying fair enough - how does the RPI know what I'm saying is true??? Well the fact that I at some stage of the disagreement (and ignoring the fact I actually approached the RPI to ask them to let me through, and I explained the situation) - actually got the guard from my train to back up my story - the RPI refused to take this information and do something sensible [guard had to leave at some stage, as they had to work the next train back]!! In the end I just gave up and said you're welcome to do whatever you want - I'm going to the ticket office to buy my ticket - I've been delayed enough as it is, and simply went though the barriers to purchase my ticket. To this day I'm not sure what the RPI thought I was doing wrong?

For those interested in why I didn't have a ticket - whilst I can't recall the exact details, I think it was something like exceeding the floor limit on my Amex card and it need phone auth, which is tricky on a large part of the SWT network!! It wasn't always an issue just happened sometimes.

 

[superkopite]

The OP might wish to reconsider his relationship with technology.

It's attitudes like this that keep rail in the dark ages

 

[pint]

Why would you need to print the ticket?
If you have an e ticket on your phone/device then surely that should suffice.
when i use a Bus, the ticket is within the app and its just a case of show it to the driver/inspector.
likewise with a tram, and e tickets work the same or similar with other places such as the cinema without any need to print anything out

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why would you need to print the ticket?
If you have an e ticket on your phone/device then surely that should suffice.
when i use a Bus, the ticket is within the app and its just a case of show it to the driver/inspector.
likewise with a tram, and e tickets work the same or similar with other places such as the cinema without any need to print anything out

For some tickets when purchased online end up giving a ticket collection code, which always happens when the tube is involved as I don't think they can currently handle QR code e-tickets.
I expect this is what happened to the OP as they were travelling into London.

 

[sheff1]

Why would you need to print the ticket?
If you have an e ticket on your phone/device then surely that should suffice.
when i use a Bus, the ticket is within the app and its just a case of show it to the driver/inspector.
likewise with a tram, and e tickets work the same or similar with other places such as the cinema without any need to print anything out

Do you get an eticket on your phone/device and use it travel on London Underground ? If so can you explain how as the Trainline, amongst others, say it is not possible.

Mobile Tickets: Alternative routes involving the London Underground

Mobile Tickets and etickets aren’t valid for the London Underground so if you book a journey with us that travels through London on the tube, we won’t offer you this option. However, if your ticket says ‘any route permitted’, you’ll have the ...

support.thetrainline.com

 

[Cowley]

Spot on. I believe this is what had happened.
I stated the facts that countered each argument of theirs and attached evidence to show a ticket was purchased, also their claim that i didn’t appeal was wholly untrue, again providing proof. I finished saying that ultimately I didn’t see any wrong doing from myself, but did not want the hassle of having to head to court （2 hours away from home)

Update.
They have withdrawn the case

Thanks for the update. We’ll close this as it’s been resolved now.