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Coventry VLR

AlastairFraser

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I'm really struggling to see the benefits over running a couple of electric double decker buses on the same planned route.
Cost,flexibility and availability of drivers. If it can be automated from a control room, it can be run with less fixed staff costs, and it can help reduce the shortage of bus drivers by redeploying them to other areas where VLR/light/heavy rail is not justified.
 
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Energy

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Cost,flexibility and availability of drivers. If it can be automated from a control room, it can be run with less fixed staff costs, and it can help reduce the shortage of bus drivers by redeploying them to other areas where VLR/light/heavy rail is not justified.
But the easy part of automating the bus is following a line, the difficult bit is interacting with the public. The VLR still has to do the latter.
 

AlastairFraser

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But the easy part of automating the bus is following a line, the difficult bit is interacting with the public. The VLR still has to do the latter.
That's why I suggested driving via CCTV from a control room, rather than full automation.
 

Russel

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Cost,flexibility and availability of drivers. If it can be automated from a control room, it can be run with less fixed staff costs, and it can help reduce the shortage of bus drivers by redeploying them to other areas where VLR/light/heavy rail is not justified.

Highly unlikely...

You're saying a fixed light rail system is cheaper and more flexible than a couple of double decker buses?

Less fixed staff costs? Are you sure? Each tram will almost certainly have a member of staff onboard, even the DLR which is automated and ran on a segregated network still has a member of staff onboard...

Maybe in theory VLR has it's advantages, but not in reality.
 

AlastairFraser

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Highly unlikely...

You're saying a fixed light rail system is cheaper and more flexible than a couple of double decker buses?

Less fixed staff costs? Are you sure? Each tram will almost certainly have a member of staff onboard, even the DLR which is automated and ran on a segregated network still has a member of staff onboard...

Maybe in theory VLR has it's advantages, but not in reality.
It's not the buses themselves, but the costs associated with them.
It does hinge on whether they will be able to control remotely or not, and I think there are examples like OrlyVAL where there is no staff on the ground at all.
 

Russel

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It's not the buses themselves, but the costs associated with them.
It does hinge on whether they will be able to control remotely or not, and I think there are examples like OrlyVAL where there is no staff on the ground at all.

If a bus route was to be used as an alternative to this, it would likely to Stagecoach or National Express, both of whom already have established operations and depots, so the associated costs would be minimal compared to building the VLR system...

Orlyval looks to be a segregated system, so isn't comparable when talking about staffing...
 

VLRnotuser

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Orlyval is everything Coventry VLR is not. Orlyval is completely segrated from other road users and has a completely clear route and can travel faster than the road speed limit because it is not on the road and runs on tyres. Coventry VLR has to navigate cars, pedestrians, e-scooters etc and would be in amongst traffic queues and held up at traffic lights and runs on rails and it would be limited to the speed limit that is 20mph in places but is called a rapid transit system! The routes will be along already congested main roads as Coventry does not have space for segregated transport. It would be a bus on rails with the disavantage of a bus plus unique rail disadvantages like not being able to go around refuse vehicles, stationary emergency ambulances, broken down vehicles etc.
 

Semper

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Involved in a tourist project. From the blurbs VLR might be an answer. Therefore, I am hoping to pick your brains or be directed to where I can find this information
Can I presume that the Coventry track is 1435mm?
Following on from that would the tram/units thus be capable of being used on normal rail lines?
And any idea where the costs associated with charging stations could be found?
And, likewise, the cost of each tram/unit?
And how many km a tram could cover before requiring recharging?
And whether there would be restrictions by gradients?

If any of these questions seem naive I apologise in advance
 

Energy

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Involved in a tourist project. From the blurbs VLR might be an answer. Therefore, I am hoping to pick your brains or be directed to where I can find this information
May I ask what this project is? And how VLR would be more suitable than a normal bus.
Following on from that would the tram/units thus be capable of being used on normal rail lines?
They won’t have the required safety systems (e.g TPWS) but if they fit I can’t see why they otherwise couldn’t.
And any idea where the costs associated with charging stations could be found?
The VLR is currently using a unit from Furrer+Frey. It’s a reverse pantograph charger and looks very similar to an OppCharge unit used for buses.
And whether there would be restrictions by gradients?
Unlikely to be much different to that of a tram. If you need more climbing ability look at a rack railway… or a normal bus.
 

Semper

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May I ask what this project is?
It is for an area which is off the beaten track. The line (or at least a larger part of it) could be dedicated. The concept is about opening up the area for both tourists and as commuter towns. At this stage it is to be able to present a case for the local MEP, MPs, and mayors to look for public funding for a professional feasability study.

And how VLR would be more suitable than a normal bus.
There are buses but as with the trains a very poor service and serving different towns. Think of two sides of a mountain range converging at the head of the range in a connecting valley. Some of the towns could not be
They won’t have the required safety systems (e.g TPWS) but if they fit I can’t see why they otherwise couldn’t.
A point that I had not considered but obviously one that could be included in the specifications for rolling stock

The VLR is currently using a unit from Furrer+Frey. It’s a reverse pantograph charger and looks very similar to an OppCharge unit used for buses.

Unlikely to be much different to that of a tram. If you need more climbing ability look at a rack railway… or a normal bus.

The advantages of using the in situ track is that there would be very little capital cost compared to, say, Coventry, as the only capital costs would be on the units and associated chargers. Using an electric form of traction. As it is at present a train service it is a long but not that steep a gradient.

Thanks for responding

Correction "Some of the towns could not be" accessed by train.
 

edwin_m

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I assume the rail groove on VLR track will be the same size as for a normal tramway. Wheels to fit such a groove will not run over railway points unless both the point (raised checkrail) and the wheel (thicker profile above rail level) are modified. This is not a huge change - Manchester Metrolink does it - but the VLR wheels being smaller might create a problem.

I'm sure the VLR people are easily found on the internet to ask them the other questions directly. If anyone has reliable information they probably shouldn't be divulging it on an open forum.
 

DJ_K666

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Why not just build bus lanes though?
They've been decommissioning bus lanes out of Cov. In fact the only one left that I use is Sky Blue Way when driving the 86 or 85A if I'm unfortunate enough to be in on a Sunday.
The buses there are terrible. Plus if they run autonomous buses there still has to be a staff member there to take over if needed, if that staff member was me I'd just drive the blasted thing around on manual anyway - It'd be far, far more reliable than anything a computer could do.

No. If I'm heading to Cov and there's a tram (forget all this 'Light Rail' nonsense. It's a tram. Light rail is Colonel Stephens, DLR or Tyne & Wear Metro or hybrids like Metrolink) then I'll use that to head to Corporation Street or I'll walk. I work on the buses so I don't want to be on one on my day off if I can help it.
 
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DPWH2

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The idea of running trams on batteries to save wiring costs seems to be good idea, even if the trams have to have downtime to be recharged at termini, but it's also pretty basic, so I'm also sure that the big tram manufacturers will be thinking of that too.

I don't see this as being taken up by a large British city. It's the sort of thing that a medium-sized town in Spain or the South of France would build on the cheap.
 

DJ_K666

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Because a lot of the bus network is a deeply unattractive proposition in Coventry, due to ASB issues in part.

Perhaps they are just testing the performance of VLR in a real-world environment, while providing a section that could be extended at either end as part of a wider network (perhaps towards the hospital in Wyken at the east end/Warwick University at the western end).
That's the plan. The initial bit will be Grove Street to the old IKEA, so close to the station and a kind of 'Get people into town' kind of thing, along a part of the proposed route. Certainly I'll find it useful to not have to park so I can access the Lower Precinct and the market, with Thunderbolt Models in mind... And thatcrevord stall right opposite. And the computer stall just round the corner.

There are plans afoot , from what Ive seen, to build around four routes, to Walsgrave Hospital via Ball Hill and Stoke, to Anstey Park and Walsgrave via Binley (basically the routes where they've installed those flashy new cycle lanes) a city loop and a route out the other way round Tile Hill, where I rarely venture.

Certainly the whole idea of autonomous buses, speaking as a bus driver is anathema to me as I see it as a threat to my job.

The idea of running trams on batteries to save wiring costs seems to be good idea, even if the trams have to have downtime to be recharged at termini, but it's also pretty basic, so I'm also sure that the big tram manufacturers will be thinking of that too.

I don't see this as being taken up by a large British city. It's the sort of thing that a medium-sized town in Spain or the South of France would build on the cheap.
In casescwhere overhead wites are needed could they not stick lamp posts opposite each other instead of staggering them and put the wires (where they're needed) on those? No need to mount them on buildings at all. Not relevant to Coventry trams, I know, just a passing thought.
 

AlastairFraser

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That's the plan. The initial bit will be Grove Street to the old IKEA, so close to the station and a kind of 'Get people into town' kind of thing, along a part of the proposed route. Certainly I'll find it useful to not have to park so I can access the Lower Precinct and the market, with Thunderbolt Models in mind... And thatcrevord stall right opposite. And the computer stall just round the corner.

There are plans afoot , from what Ive seen, to build around four routes, to Walsgrave Hospital via Ball Hill and Stoke, to Anstey Park and Walsgrave via Binley (basically the routes where they've installed those flashy new cycle lanes) a city loop and a route out the other way round Tile Hill, where I rarely venture.

Certainly the whole idea of autonomous buses, speaking as a bus driver is anathema to me as I see it as a threat to my job.
That makes a lot of sense. I can't see autonomous buses working well in most of the UK, because a lot of our suburban and rural road markings/quality is just not good enough for an autonomous bus to drive safely and consistently.
 

DJ_K666

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That makes a lot of sense. I can't see autonomous buses working well in most of the UK, because a lot of our suburban and rural road markings/quality is just not good enough for an autonomous bus to drive safely and consistently.
Absolutely. As I said up thread, you'd have to have a member of staff in the cab which would defeat the point of them, and I'd just drive it around on manual thr whole time, mainly to stave off the boredom. But also because computers just cannot be trusted.
 

AlastairFraser

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Absolutely. As I said up thread, you'd have to have a member of staff in the cab which would defeat the point of them, and I'd just drive it around on manual thr whole time, mainly to stave off the boredom. But also because computers just cannot be trusted.
I could see a computerised version of a guided busway perhaps, with a driver joining for any service section using a public road.
 

edwin_m

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In casescwhere overhead wites are needed could they not stick lamp posts opposite each other instead of staggering them and put the wires (where they're needed) on those? No need to mount them on buildings at all. Not relevant to Coventry trams, I know, just a passing thought.
That was done, for example, on the Metrolink Ashton line.

I could see a computerised version of a guided busway perhaps, with a driver joining for any service section using a public road.
Unless the public road section was very short, you'd need so many drivers to avoid the risk of a bus being stopped awaiting a one, that you might as well keep them on board for the guided section too.
 

AlastairFraser

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Unless the public road section was very short, you'd need so many drivers to avoid the risk of a bus being stopped awaiting a one, that you might as well keep them on board for the guided section too.
Could you not import the railway practise of "stepping back"?
 

edwin_m

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Could you not import the railway practise of "stepping back"?
Even if you did that, it only requires a bus in one direction to be delayed for another one to be as well, unless you have some spare drivers sitting around at the busway to highway transition.
 

AlastairFraser

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Even if you did that, it only requires a bus in one direction to be delayed for another one to be as well, unless you have some spare drivers sitting around at the busway to highway transition.
Spares at the busway transition would make sense if you used autonomous buses on e.g. the Luton and Dunstable Busway.
 

DJ_K666

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I could see a computerised version of a guided busway perhaps, with a driver joining for any service section using a public road.
Yeah that could work. And save the boredom. That said I'm not sure where a Guided busway might fit in between Rugby and Coventry, where I'm often found on either the 86, or if I'm unfortunate enough to be working a Sunday, the 85A.
 

AlastairFraser

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Yeah that could work. And save the boredom. That said I'm not sure where a Guided busway might fit in between Rugby and Coventry, where I'm often found on either the 86, or if I'm unfortunate enough to be working a Sunday, the 85A.
Oh, sorry, yes I went off-topic a bit with guided busways in general. VLR will hopefully work for Cov!
 

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