COVID-19: School Closures

[Cowley]

An internet acquaintance of my wife has told her she's contracted the virus: she's a primary school teacher who has continued to work teaching the kids who still need to attend school. I find it particularly sad when someone in her position, or working as a carer or nurse, etc, falls ill with it and I can only wish her a full and speedy recovery.

Is the unfortunate lady from down your way Busaholic? We’ve been pretty fortunate in the southwest so far...
I hope she makes a speedy recovery.

 

[The Ham]

An internet acquaintance of my wife has told her she's contracted the virus: she's a primary school teacher who has continued to work teaching the kids who still need to attend school. I find it particularly sad when someone in her position, or working as a carer or nurse, etc, falls ill with it and I can only wish her a full and speedy recovery.

Whilst I wish anyone who catches the virus a speedy recovery, it is kind of inevitable that those staff are going to be at higher risk of getting it.

Firstly they are going to be dealing with children of frontline NHS* staff and so they are at fairly high risk of picking it up.

Secondly they are dealing with children who are at risk, who often have complications in their life. Some of which may put them at higher risk of contracting the virus, such as having social workers visiting their homes (only by the virtue of them maybe finding it hard to undertake social distancing all the time)


* My phone's first suggestion after frontline was commando, given the prestige given to them in the army (or at least within popular culture) and the risks that they take to protect others it brought a small smile to me that such a suggestion was made.

 

[The Ham]

Is the unfortunate lady from down your way Busaholic? We’ve been pretty fortunate in the southwest so far...
I hope she makes a speedy recovery.

If you look at the numbers several London areas have >100 cases per 100,000 people whilst parts of the SW have just ~15.

Then you wonder why many in the SW have been unhappy about those with second homes (many from London) moving to stay in their second homes during this time...

 

[class387]

Just a thought: If social distancing is to continue into autumn, what will happen in schools come September? I can not see any way how the 2m rule can be enforced, both in classrooms and outside, but I also don't think it's sustainable to keep schools closed beyond then.

 

[bramling]

Just a thought: If social distancing is to continue into autumn, what will happen in schools come September? I can not see any way how the 2m rule can be enforced, both in classrooms and outside, but I also don't think it's sustainable to keep schools closed beyond then.

I agree. Ultimately an extended gap in schooling could have pretty negative consequences. They're simply going to *have* to find a way round the social distancing, difficult though it's going to be.

 

[6862]

I wonder how all this will affect universities? As a PhD student I desperately want to get back to work, and there will be thousands of undergraduate students up and down the country who were looking forward to starting at university this September. I wonder if they might end up starting their studies without leaving home? It's hard to see a situation where halls of residence would be allowed to reopen if social distancing is needed until we have a vaccine.

And I also wonder how a potential school reopening in September would fit in with annual rises in coughs and colds in autumn-winter, as well as the dreaded 'second wave'.

 

[Cardiff123]

I wonder how all this will affect universities? As a PhD student I desperately want to get back to work, and there will be thousands of undergraduate students up and down the country who were looking forward to starting at university this September. I wonder if they might end up starting their studies without leaving home? It's hard to see a situation where halls of residence could reopen if social distancing is needed until we have a vaccine.

It's not just halls. It will be impossible for lectures to take place in Universities come the autumn with, as Chris Whitty said earlier, "highly disruptive" social distancing measures in place. As a current University student, I can say that University lecture theatres are packed full, with Universities trying to recruit as many students as possible to boost their tuition fee income. Ok, the autumn 2021 first year intake might be down, but current year groups will still be there.

It will be impossible to have all students in a lecture at least 2 metres apart. I can see all University lectures being online until at least the Spring term 2021. Same for University libraries. My Uni library is usually packed, no way can students be kept 2 metres apart without drastically reducing capacity, like having 1 or 2 students around a table instead of 4.
And this is all before even thinking about what many students go to University for, the socialising in pubs, bars and nightclubs, which surely will be impossible under strict social distancing rules.

 

[6862]

It's not just halls. It will be impossible for lectures to take place in Universities come the autumn with, as Chris Whitty said earlier, "highly disruptive" social distancing measures in place. As a current University student, I can say that University lecture theatres are packed full, with Universities trying to recruit as many students as possible to boost their tuition fee income. Ok, the autumn 2021 first year intake might be down, but current year groups will still be there.

It will be impossible to have all students in a lecture at least 2 metres apart. I can see all University lectures being online until at least the Spring term 2021. Same for University libraries. My Uni library is usually packed, no way can students be kept 2 metres apart without drastically reducing capacity, like having 1 or 2 students around a table instead of 4.
And this is all before even thinking about what many students go to University for, the socialising in pubs, bars and nightclubs, which surely will be impossible under strict social distancing rules.

I agree with all this - I only mentioned halls as an example, there are of course many other aspects of university life that will be impacted by these restrictions.

 

[PTR 444]

I agree with all this - I only mentioned halls as an example, there are of course many other aspects of university life that will be impacted by these restrictions.

Of course nobody know how long this is going to go on for and many returning students are assuming things will be back to normal by September. As a student myself, I can’t imagine many will be willing to pay tuition fees for what could become an entire year of distance learning, therefore I think there could be a high proportion of students deferring their study until September 2021.

One possible solution I have in mind could be for all universities to spread the entirety of next academic year’s teaching over 2 years, while halving tuition fees and accommodation costs for each year. That way, there is a higher chance that normal teaching and social events will have resumed before students finish studies. It should also take a lot of pressure off students, as well as incentivise those who plan to return to uni this September in case they may be considering taking a year out amidst this uncertainty.

 

[yorkie]

Just a thought: If social distancing is to continue into autumn, what will happen in schools come September? I can not see any way how the 2m rule can be enforced, both in classrooms and outside, but I also don't think it's sustainable to keep schools closed beyond then.

I think by then we will have a good understanding of various questions such as:

• the rate at which children will get the virus
• the rate at which children will spread the virus
• the rate at which children are asymptomatic
  (etc...)

I suspect the authorities will allow parents to keep children learning from home if they - or members of their family - are deemed 'high risk', which may keep the numbers down.

As for a phased return, I know some people will point to prioritising certain yeargroups e.g. those doing GCSEs, but from a 'childcare' and safeguarding point of view it's the younger students who you need in.

But before a phased return to 'regular' students takes place, I'd like to see more vulnerable students in much sooner, i.e. within a matter of weeks, where schools can handle that. I know of schools that have around 10 times as many volunteers to work in the school as they do students in school!

 

[6862]

One possible solution I have in mind could be for all universities to spread the entirety of next academic year’s teaching over 2 years, while halving tuition fees and accommodation costs for each year. That way, there is a higher chance that normal teaching and social events will have resumed before students finish studies. It should also take a lot of pressure off students, as well as incentivise those who plan to return to uni this September in case they may be considering taking a year out amidst this uncertainty.

I suspect you're right that many students might want to defer a year (but what would they do for that year? - there won't be any jobs for them!) and I can see the appeal of what you suggest for some students, but I think with the already complex timetabling and organisation of degree courses that might be impractical.

We also can't forget the knock on impacts in years ahead - we don't want current Year 12s being told that they can't go to university in 2021 because the universities are full of people who can't go this year!

And there will be a knock on effect 'upwards' too - not only has the disruption of education halted almost all academic research now, it could disrupt it for years to come if students don't continue to feed through the system.

Personally, I would favour postgraduate students being allowed to return to work in a controlled fashion whenever non essential businesses reopen, and then have universities open as usual to undergraduates in September/October. Then if a second wave comes, keep all students in their university residences (halls and privately rented houses), and perhaps ban trips home for Christmas if needed. This last point is drastic (and I personally doubt that its necessary, but the public opinion is so pro-lockdown that I think such drastic measures will continue to be seen as the only way forward).

 

[Qwerty133]

It's not just halls. It will be impossible for lectures to take place in Universities come the autumn with, as Chris Whitty said earlier, "highly disruptive" social distancing measures in place. As a current University student, I can say that University lecture theatres are packed full, with Universities trying to recruit as many students as possible to boost their tuition fee income. Ok, the autumn 2021 first year intake might be down, but current year groups will still be there.

It will be impossible to have all students in a lecture at least 2 metres apart. I can see all University lectures being online until at least the Spring term 2021. Same for University libraries. My Uni library is usually packed, no way can students be kept 2 metres apart without drastically reducing capacity, like having 1 or 2 students around a table instead of 4.
And this is all before even thinking about what many students go to University for, the socialising in pubs, bars and nightclubs, which surely will be impossible under strict social distancing rules.

There is actually a strong argument in allowing universities to return to something resembling normal for most domestic students even if it isn't possible for wider society. The vast majority of university students are at a very low risk of dying from this virus and universities are often relatively self contained meaning that any spread of the virus would mostly be contained within the university community. A return to normal will allow fees to continue coming in, an uninterrupted supply of graduates of the usual calibre which will be essential in keeping key industries staffed in the medium term, and potentially a real life environment to test technology and other measures that could reduce spread in a less distanced world. Returning to something resembling normality should also allow unis to better support the minority of students whose medical conditions mean in person attendance should be avoided, whether that be through a leave of absence or helping them transfer to distance based learning.

 

[PTR 444]

I suspect you're right that many students might want to defer a year (but what would they do for that year? - there won't be any jobs for them!) and I can see the appeal of what you suggest for some students, but I think with the already complex timetabling and organisation of degree courses that might be impractical.

We also can't forget the knock on impacts in years ahead - we don't want current Year 12s being told that they can't go to university in 2021 because the universities are full of people who can't go this year!

And there will be a knock on effect 'upwards' too - not only has the disruption of education halted almost all academic research now, it could disrupt it for years to come if students don't continue to feed through the system.

Personally, I would favour postgraduate students being allowed to return to work in a controlled fashion whenever non essential businesses reopen, and then have universities open as usual to undergraduates in September/October. Then if a second wave comes, keep all students in their university residences (halls and privately rented houses), and perhaps ban trips home for Christmas if needed. This last point is drastic (and I personally doubt that its necessary, but the public opinion is so pro-lockdown that I think such drastic measures will continue to be seen as the only way forward).

Thinking about it, preventing students returning home from university for the entire duration of next year could be a feasible approach if there is a second outbreak in the winter, and one that i don’t think would be too unpopular with students. It would work better for campus based universities where students and staff live on site as you could “lock” the campus down, keeping facilities open but banning all external visitors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking about it, preventing students returning home from university for the entire duration of next year could be a feasible approach if there is a second outbreak in the winter, and one that i don’t think would be too unpopular with students. It would work better for campus based universities where students and staff live on site as you could “lock” the campus down, keeping facilities open but banning all external visitors.

The problem there is that I don't think there's a single university in the whole country where everyone lives on site. Some like Edge Hill and Lancaster get a bit close, but both of those (which are similar in the sense of the campus being a bit out of town) very much spill over into the adjacent town/city for both accommodation and entertainment.

 

[Qwerty133]

The problem there is that I don't think there's a single university in the whole country where everyone lives on site. Some like Edge Hill and Lancaster get a bit close, but both of those (which are similar in the sense of the campus being a bit out of town) very much spill over into the adjacent town/city for both accommodation and entertainment.

I don't think a total separation from society is necessary as long as the restrictions on the rest of society were followed when off campus or other designated areas (in some cities it may well make sense to include the opening, to students only, of a small number of privately run bars and nightclubs and other businesses that are predominantly used by students). It may also be possible in some cases to designate separate supermarket shopping times to students and non students, with thorough cleaning after the student hours, without too much disruption as students tend to shop later in the day while locals tend to visit earlier.

 

[The Ham]

Probably a bigger problem for universities will be the lack of foreign students (who pay a LOT to study in the UK).

As such I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shift towards online (distance) learning with a final year (or maybe a couple of summers) being undertaken "on campus". We could see a reduction in the total number of universities, but probably a slight improvement in quality.

Such courses could be aimed at foreign students, but could also benefit others, such as those who want to work and learn. As an hour long lecture could be done in an extended lunch break, meaning that a day's worth of lectures could be done within the working week.

You could also have the person getting the training be able to ask more senior staff questions about what is being said, even showing them the clip which they are struggling with.

Staff could record teaching and then do a question and answer section at the end of it. Which would allow them to monitor questions as they come in, but also be able to deal with some fairly basic emails and admin type work. As time goes by they could rerecord the teaching adding in some extra information to deal with FAQ, therefore improving the quality of the teaching provided. Alternatively they could have an extra, optional, teaching video which provides some extra "around the subject" teaching which isn't needed within the course (it could even be covered in associated courses) to provide a wider understanding of the field.

Such around the subject teaching videos are likely to be useful for industry where staff may need fairly specific training which could be sold to business as CPD for their staff (thus increasing income for the university whilst providing industry with very specific training). Again there could be a Q&A, which is what industry would really be paying for. With options to be part of a number of companies or be the only company getting the training at that time.

 

[HH]

As for a phased return, I know some people will point to prioritising certain yeargroups e.g. those doing GCSEs, but from a 'childcare' and safeguarding point of view it's the younger students who you need in.

The younger children go to different schools than the GCSE students. The problem I see for the very young ones is that they will struggle to follow instructions. They also require more physical contact (e.g. they have little accidents).

But before a phased return to 'regular' students takes place, I'd like to see more vulnerable students in much sooner, i.e. within a matter of weeks, where schools can handle that. I know of schools that have around 10 times as many volunteers to work in the school as they do students in school!

They already take vulnerable children; however not all the children that could attend school do attend school (not even half at my son's - a teacher - school). I guess that most parents who can keep the children at home are keeping the children at home.

 

[chris11256]

On the vulnerable children front(putting my working in a school hat on), we we're open for the 30 or so eligable pupils that we had. Of those about 25 said they'd like to take advantage of being able to come in.
However come the first Monday only 2 pupils turned up, this dropped to 1 by the next day. On Wednesday that pupil said they're going to be staying at home in future, so the Head took the decision to close.

From our end we think this came from the Government advice that pupils who could stay at home should do so and that coming in to school would be a last restort.

 

[yorkie]

They already take vulnerable children...

Not by my definition, and you are talking about half a percent of students in school in some cases.

 

[HH]

Not by my definition, and you are talking about half a percent of students in school in some cases.

Well then you'd better give us your definition and say why it's a better one than the government's.

 

[yorkie]

Well then you'd better give us your definition and say why it's a better one than the government's.

Even children that are on the list are encouraged to stay at home and won't be allowed in to school if their parents are not working or if their parents say they are able to be home alone. Some students are depressed at not being able to be in school and have indicated they may self harm and yet they are still told to stay away.

You are literally talking about less than a handful of students out of several hundred. There is no way anyone can tell me that only 3 or 4 students should be in school out of many hundreds; I just won't accept that.

 

[HH]

Even children that are on the list are encouraged to stay at home and won't be allowed in to school if their parents are not working or if their parents say they are able to be home alone. Some students are depressed at not being able to be in school and have indicated they may self harm and yet they are still told to stay away.

You are literally talking about less than a handful of students out of several hundred. There is no way anyone can tell me that only 3 or 4 students should be in school out of many hundreds; I just won't accept that.

I think you’ll find that the response is localised, that is it differs from place to place. But my son says that at his school an initial 30 dropped to 9 as *parents* chose to keep their children at home. I don’t know what anyone can do about that.

 

[trebor79]

Even children that are on the list are encouraged to stay at home and won't be allowed in to school if their parents are not working or if their parents say they are able to be home alone. Some students are depressed at not being able to be in school and have indicated they may self harm and yet they are still told to stay away.

My 6 year old son is extremely distressed at the school closures. He is in no way a vulnerable child but he loved being at school and loved his learning. He has actually regressed about 18 months/2 years in his behaviours - we're back to meltdowns at bath time and he spends every day dressed up as Andy Day from "Andy's Dinosaur Adventures" (even to the extent of putting his waistcoat, backpack and hat on over his pyjamas before he comes through to us in the morning.
And it's not just no school, there's no swimming, Beavers, cricket or visits to/from grandparents which are all things he enjoys. It's traumatic for young children and the government needs to make sure they can go back to school as soon as possible. And that school environment needs to be as normal as possible given the miniscule risk this virus poses to the young. I don't want him growing up in a "socially distanced" world, that's not a proper life.

The loss of learning opportunity is what worries me most about this situation. If school and university closures go on for many more months it is going to have a profound impact upon a whole generation. If we don't educate our young people properly it doesn't bode well for the future of civilisation.

 

[6862]

The loss of learning opportunity is what worries me most about this situation. If school and university closures go on for many more months it is going to have a profound impact upon a whole generation. If we don't educate our young people properly it doesn't bode well for the future of civilisation.

I agree wholeheartedly with this - potentially destroying the education of an entire generation by keeping schools and universities closed long term is a very real risk, and one which a worryingly large majority seem to be in favour of. Of course they wouldn't say it in those terms, but that's what it amounts to! No amount of educational TV series, problem sheets downloaded from some sort of online portal, and online classes can ever replace face to face learning. But that is exactly what it seems will happen for the forseable future.

 

[nedchester]

As a father of two I certainly am spotted the mental strain they are currently going through.

Children are naturally social beings and they need to get back into social contact with their friends as well as beginning to start lessons again.

I actually think schools will start to go back on June 1st after half term and gradually building up to the normal full compliment by the end of term (July)

 

[Ianno87]

My 6 year old son is extremely distressed at the school closures. He is in no way a vulnerable child but he loved being at school and loved his learning. He has actually regressed about 18 months/2 years in his behaviours - we're back to meltdowns at bath time and he spends every day dressed up as Andy Day from "Andy's Dinosaur Adventures" (even to the extent of putting his waistcoat, backpack and hat on over his pyjamas before he comes through to us in the morning.
And it's not just no school, there's no swimming, Beavers, cricket or visits to/from grandparents which are all things he enjoys. It's traumatic for young children and the government needs to make sure they can go back to school as soon as possible. And that school environment needs to be as normal as possible given the miniscule risk this virus poses to the young. I don't want him growing up in a "socially distanced" world, that's not a proper life.

The loss of learning opportunity is what worries me most about this situation. If school and university closures go on for many more months it is going to have a profound impact upon a whole generation. If we don't educate our young people properly it doesn't bode well for the future of civilisation.

My 3 year old is in nursery this year, but is unlikely to return before he starts school in September.

Part of the point of the nursery year is to prepare for the structure of school life, build social and listening skills, that sort of thing.

He'd made real progress over the course of the year until a few weeks ago. My worry is it all going backwards again by September and hampering his early school years.

At least he won't be the only one in this boar...I don't envy the job of Reception class teachers come September...

But even if his nursery did reopen, there's so little time left in the year that there's almost no point returning for a short period, given the damage the abrupt interruption will have done to his general progress.

 

[krus_aragon]

My eldest (5) is coping quite fine: she's comfortable with the idea of doing some homeschool with me four or five mornings a week, and is able to lose track of days well enough to not make a fuss about the lack of weekly visits to the grandparents. The novelty of having both parents at home has probably helped.

Her younger brother (approaching 3) has lost out on the time alone with Mum that he'd normally get on a school day, when he'd get to do his own stuff. Big sister is really latching onto him for company, and can be a bit too controlling at times. He's often squealing in frustration at rough play, or being forced into something he's not interested in. But by-and-large, they're better off for being siblings rather than only children.

 

[Scotrail12]

Probably a bigger problem for universities will be the lack of foreign students (who pay a LOT to study in the UK).

As such I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shift towards online (distance) learning with a final year (or maybe a couple of summers) being undertaken "on campus". We could see a reduction in the total number of universities, but probably a slight improvement in quality.

Such courses could be aimed at foreign students, but could also benefit others, such as those who want to work and learn. As an hour long lecture could be done in an extended lunch break, meaning that a day's worth of lectures could be done within the working week.

You could also have the person getting the training be able to ask more senior staff questions about what is being said, even showing them the clip which they are struggling with.

Staff could record teaching and then do a question and answer section at the end of it. Which would allow them to monitor questions as they come in, but also be able to deal with some fairly basic emails and admin type work. As time goes by they could rerecord the teaching adding in some extra information to deal with FAQ, therefore improving the quality of the teaching provided. Alternatively they could have an extra, optional, teaching video which provides some extra "around the subject" teaching which isn't needed within the course (it could even be covered in associated courses) to provide a wider understanding of the field.

Such around the subject teaching videos are likely to be useful for industry where staff may need fairly specific training which could be sold to business as CPD for their staff (thus increasing income for the university whilst providing industry with very specific training). Again there could be a Q&A, which is what industry would really be paying for. With options to be part of a number of companies or be the only company getting the training at that time.

As a uni student myself, I think that this would be a terrible idea if implemented across the board for all students. If we're being real, part of the attraction of university for the school leavers is potentially living away from home (in halls or other accommodation), meeting new people, clubbing etc. It's been part of the university life for decades. Whilst that may be temporarily paused just now, it cannot be a long-term measure otherwise numbers will probably decrease. One would also pick up a lot of life skills at university, but that just doesn't happen if doing it through a computer screen and likely from their bedroom.

This would also be far more complicated for the uni staff. They are busy as it is - some of them teach several hours of classes in a row whilst others are in the research field so they wouldn't have the time to be doing Q&A's afterwards. Recording lectures could also potentially be time consuming.

Finally, it would be a total waste of campus space.

 

[Esker-pades]

As a uni student myself, I think that this would be a terrible idea if implemented across the board for all students. If we're being real, part of the attraction of university for the school leavers is potentially living away from home (in halls or other accommodation), meeting new people, clubbing etc. It's been part of the university life for decades. Whilst that may be temporarily paused just now, it cannot be a long-term measure otherwise numbers will probably decrease. One would also pick up a lot of life skills at university, but that just doesn't happen if doing it through a computer screen and likely from their bedroom.

This would also be far more complicated for the uni staff. They are busy as it is - some of them teach several hours of classes in a row whilst others are in the research field so they wouldn't have the time to be doing Q&A's afterwards. Recording lectures could also potentially be time consuming.

Finally, it would be a total waste of campus space.

It wouldn't be a permenant situation, but it may have to be done at least partially even next academic year. The examination situation aside, finding places to rent when the market has been at an effective standstill is going to be very difficult. I don't envy anyone trying to find a place to rent for the next academic year. Travelling....who knows what the situation will be like? Even if some travelling is allowed, if social distancing measures remain in place in the order of months (which is highly likely), how can one justify in-person lectures?

I'm aware of schools within my university and others all but assuming that next academic year will be mostly done via remote learning (especially the first semester).

There is no ideal solution, but if you're only worried about not being able to go clubbing with potential new friends, you're absolutely fine.

 

[Scotrail12]

It wouldn't be a permenant situation, but it may have to be done at least partially even next academic year. The examination situation aside, finding places to rent when the market has been at an effective standstill is going to be very difficult. I don't envy anyone trying to find a place to rent for the next academic year. Travelling....who knows what the situation will be like? Even if some travelling is allowed, if social distancing measures remain in place in the order of months (which is highly likely), how can one justify in-person lectures?

I'm aware of schools within my university and others all but assuming that next academic year will be mostly done via remote learning (especially the first semester).

There is no ideal solution, but if you're only worried about not being able to go clubbing with potential new friends, you're absolutely fine.

My main worry isn't the clubbing aspect (I was speaking for students as a whole, I personally dislike it) but there is absolutely no way that I could work remotely. I need to be physically present to have any hope of getting things done. Working at home is a total distraction so if it does actually go remote, I'll probably suspend my studies.

I know that certain measures wouldn't be permanent, but I got that impression from the poster I'd quoted.