Craven Arms disruption (30/09)

[zwk500]

There's a Network Rail training video publicly on youtube called "A Perfect Misunderstanding", where someone made a safety critical cock-up (also involving a level crossing and a SPAD). So there's definitely precedent for telling the public more than they absolutely need to know and I think that's the right approach as long as it's taken as learning points rather than a way to punish someone.

Yes, after the actual course of events is known a free discussion is perfectly appropriate. The key is, as you say, waiting for the proper authorities to investigate what happened.

I can also get behind keeping details confidential while an investigation is ongoing, until the RAIB or whoever have reached a conclusion. I'm also pretty sure for anyone who does have access to internal data such as control logs, it's some kind of disciplinary offence to post them on a public forum.

Control logs are definitely not meant to be shared. If you are supposed to be able to see them you'd be issued with the right logins.

 

[Bluejays]

I disagree entirely - if I dropped a clanger that had the potential to impact anyone's safety I'd want everyone to know the details to potentially avoid it happening to someone else through mutual improvement. Been there, done that.

That's what you take on when you agree to do a job that has other people's lives in your hands. Learning is far more important than your own sensitivity about making a mistake and others knowing about it.

People from other industries can also take the learning points and apply them to their own situations.

Totally agree. People are entitled to know about incidents that could affect safety. And the ability to learn from others mistakes is priceless.

Looking at the devastation to the timetable yesterday, I'd say it's also perfectly acceptable for passengers and rail staff to want to know the reasons why their journeys/days have been extended for hours.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When's the section of line expected to be back open?

... the line is back open today.

Thanks!

 

[66701GBRF]

RAIB were notified under the relevant schedule but I have seen no reports or indication they attended, or an accredited agent attended or that they are even investigating.

 

[AndrewE]

RAIB were notified under the relevant schedule but I have seen no reports or indication they attended, or an accredited agent attended or that they are even investigating.

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!
I very much hope that they do make public what happened, even if only by commenting on the conclusions of some other inquiry.
People talk upthread about knuckle divisions, but surely that is just a coupler coming uncoupled - and I can understand it not being a particularly rare event or having much wider implications. This sounds to have been on a different plane altogether.

 

[66701GBRF]

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!
I very much hope that they do make public what happened, even if only by commenting on the conclusions of some other inquiry.
People talk upthread about knuckle divisions, but surely that is just a coupler coming uncoupled - and I can understand it not being a particularly rare event or having much wider implications. This sounds to have been on a different plane altogether.

Im not saying they are or are not investigating, just pointing out their intentions are normally recorded during on going incidents and the only thing I have seen is the required railway to RAIB notification under schedule 1.7.

RAIB generally concentrate on the causes of accidents and incidents, the fact this incident (which is not all that uncommon) resulted in more damage than usual doesn’t mean they will automatically investigate.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Totally agree. People are entitled to know about incidents that could affect safety. And the ability to learn from others mistakes is priceless.

Looking at the devastation to the timetable yesterday, I'd say it's also perfectly acceptable for passengers and rail staff to want to know the reasons why their journeys/days have been extended for hours.

The learning from other people’s mistakes comes from a proper investigation, not hot takes. The former takes time - for example, what is the vehicles maintenance regime, is it appropriate, was the work required done, who signed it off, who monitors this kind of thing at the operator, what do they do, what is the audit process, and so on. That all takes time to ascertain.

The delay was caused by a component coming off a wagon and damaging a passenger train coming in the other direction. Both trains were immobilised and the line had to be closed for a period of time whilst both trains were recovered. No one was injured in the incident. This incident was reported to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch for them to investigate, if they deem it necessary to do so. What else is there to say to people at this stage?

It’s the seemingly insatiable appetite to instantly know every detail and discuss it endlessly that I don’t get. You won’t get the full details until a proper RAIB investigation is done and then we will all know.

 

[Bluejays]

The learning from other people’s mistakes comes from a proper investigation, not hot takes. The former takes time - for example, what is the vehicles maintenance regime, is it appropriate, was the work required done, who signed it off, who monitors this kind of thing at the operator, what do they do, what is the audit process, and so on. That all takes time to ascertain.

The delay was caused by a component coming off a wagon and damaging a passenger train coming in the other direction. Both trains were immobilised and the line had to be closed for a period of time whilst both trains were recovered. No one was injured in the incident. This incident was reported to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch for them to investigate, if they deem it necessary to do so. What else is there to say to people at this stage?

It’s the seemingly insatiable appetite to instantly know every detail and discuss it endlessly that I don’t get. You won’t get the full details until a proper RAIB investigation is done and then we will all know.

Edited*

Well I'm not too sure I've seen that much evidence of 'hot takes' or anyone insatiably trying to find out every detail to be honest.

You are of course correct that learning comes from proper investigations. I was defending the right of the RAIB to publish details of individuals mistakes in their reports, which appeared to be being challenged.

It does also seem to be a pretty widely held view from those who pay for customer insight, that the punters like some info Beyond 'operational incident'. Obviously that doesn't need to go beyond '2 broken down trains'. But there does need to be some info fed back to the passengers.

 

[Malaxa]

I am missing something... A freight train's coupling "came free?" What does that mean?
How on earth can a coupling (which I know are massive and heavy) end up on the adjacent track? Did the loco coupling get pulled out of the chassis and drop down, dig in and get catapulted away on to the adjacent line by the train?
I hope that RAIB writes it up in some form so that we get a clear explanation...

...and understanding of the laws of physics, hitherto unknown, which apparently governed this incident.

 

[AndrewE]

...and understanding of the laws of physics, hitherto unknown, which apparently governed this incident.

You don't say?
However railway engineers have had enough education, training and experience to ensure that components don't wilfully and randomly drop off trains.

Something big and heavy like a coupling is probably made of cast steel (rather than forged as drawbars used to be) but I guess could have cracked and come apart... It will usually be held on by a thick (forged) steel pin, maybe with a giant castellated nut done up against a washer and then the nut fixed in place by a big split pin through the castellations. Hence our incredulity that a coupling appears to have been pulled bodily out of a wagon and gone walkabout, endangering an adjacent line.

 

[davetheguard]

It appears that all trains on the Central Wales Line today have been cancelled.

Our plans to travel from Shrewsbury to Llandeilo have had to be abandoned - the hotel in Landeilo have already taken payment, so £150 out of pocket.

Tried to travel "the long way round" from the other end of the line instead, but train from Swansea cancelled too.

Is this in anyway connected with yesterday's disruption? Or something else entirely? It would at least be good to know the reason!

 

[800001]

It appears that all trains on the Central Wales Line today have been cancelled.

Our plans to travel from Shrewsbury to Llandeilo have had to be abandoned - the hotel in Landeilo have already taken payment, so £150 out of pocket.

Tried to travel "the long way round" from the other end of the line instead, but train from Swansea cancelled too.

Is this in anyway connected with yesterday's disruption? Or something else entirely? It would at least be good to know the reason!

No replace transport (taxi/coaches) provided?

I can’t see anything on there twitter or live status page about any reason why no service.

A few complaints from other people also stuck at stations with no help.!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It appears that all trains on the Central Wales Line today have been cancelled.

Is this in anyway connected with yesterday's disruption? Or something else entirely? It would at least be good to know the reason!

Possibly "shortage of drivers" is the reason. Anyone able to confirm?

 

[800001]

Possibly "shortage of drivers" is the reason. Anyone able to confirm?

RTT have it as a preplanned cancellation, so I presume removed from system last night prior to 2200?

 

[DelW]

Possibly "shortage of drivers" is the reason. Anyone able to confirm?

RTT have it as a preplanned cancellation, so I presume removed from system last night prior to 2200?

TfW journey check is showing both afternoon services cancelled due to shortage of drivers, with road transport having been "requested". However for a Pembroke Dock service, also cancelled, it says that road transport "will be provided".

 

[185143]

It appears that all trains on the Central Wales Line today have been cancelled.

Our plans to travel from Shrewsbury to Llandeilo have had to be abandoned - the hotel in Landeilo have already taken payment, so £150 out of pocket.

Tried to travel "the long way round" from the other end of the line instead, but train from Swansea cancelled too.

Is this in anyway connected with yesterday's disruption? Or something else entirely? It would at least be good to know the reason!

I've also been caught up in this, there was a coach from a Shrewsbury firm parked up at Llandrindod when I passed.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I object to employment history being published for any Jack and Harry to read after an incident, potentially as has happened personal circumstances also published as a cause, or side effect of the less up to an incident.

It’s no one’s business outside those who actually need to know within the industry. Members of the public and non related staff don’t need to know about “me” and my employment history or history of incidents.



If you’d made a mistake in the course of your employment would like that mistake to be poured over by people who in the main have little idea about how things actually real done?

It’s a horrible place to be, reading about your cock up which you’re already beating yourself up about online.

I am pretty sure RAIB no longer publish names in their reports - probably since way before [that acronym I cannot remember] Certainly staff in Control offices have strict guidelines on log entries, such as staff sickness etc

 

[Purple Train]

I am pretty sure RAIB no longer publish names in their reports - probably since way before [that acronym I cannot remember] Certainly staff in Control offices have strict guidelines on log entries, such as staff sickness etc

Indeed they don't, unless it's an incident involving someone being fatally struck by a train, where they occasionally publish the name of the deceased.

Railway staff are mostly referred to as "Driver A" or "Shunter 2" if multiple people are involved.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I am pretty sure RAIB no longer publish names in their reports - probably since way before [that acronym I cannot remember] Certainly staff in Control offices have strict guidelines on log entries, such as staff sickness etc

The last major report to have names published for all parties throughout was the Cullen report into Ladbroke Grove. For lower level stuff it was already phased out by the late 90s.

My understanding is names of people who pass away in rail accidents can only be shared in reports under express consent of their loved ones