Crewe/Chester/Warrington electrics

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aformeruser

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As your someone from North Wales, assuming the North Wales coast is not included, how would you like services to operate if Warrington-Chester and Chester-Crewe are electrified?

Holyhead-London could operate using Voyagers with Pantograph vehicles or dragged Pendolinos. However, what about Llandudno-Manchester?
 

cle

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Don't the Chester terminators interwork with Holyhead portions?

So it'd be just the shuttle between Crewe and Chester, at 1tph - and with no stops, not too much benefit from going electric in terms of for passengers. Fuel, yes.
 

aformeruser

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Don't the Chester terminators interwork with Holyhead portions?

Yes but it would mean 2 x dual powered Voyagers could run on electrics up to Chester, then when they split one could continue to Holyhead under diesel power and the other reverses and goes back to London under electric.

So it'd be just the shuttle between Crewe and Chester, at 1tph - and with no stops, not too much benefit from going electric in terms of for passengers.

It be interesting to see what rolling stock would be used. A 120-150 2 car DMU has been adequate when ever I've seen it, so a 280 seater EMU would be overkill (like it is on the off-peak Manchester-Alderley Edge services.)
 
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cle

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I think with all this we'll end up seeing some new EMUs in 2 and 3 car multiples, possible 170-esque I would guess.

Class 315s and 319s can't fulfill all Pacer and 150 replacement!

Good point re: bi-mode Voyagers, assuming it happens.
 

The Informer

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Not heard a whisper from any media this is to happen, all the others to be announced today have been leaked to the press.

Hope this important area is not forgotten.:(

Anyone picked anything up,


Bob

Bob, I posted in another thread. I know of some survey teams that have just done an OHLE survey of the North Wales coast. Let's see if it comes to anything.



 

aformeruser

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Class 315s and 319s can't fulfill all Pacer and 150 replacement!

And don't forget that Porterbrook making 153s isn't economically viable if they stay in single car formation.

We should order a versatile DMU, like a 100mph 172, to replace any 142s/150s that aren't replaced as a result of electrification schemes. Then their use shouldn't be restricted once further electrification schemes are announced.
 

merlodlliw

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As your someone from North Wales, assuming the North Wales coast is not included, how would you like services to operate if Warrington-Chester and Chester-Crewe are electrified?

Holyhead-London could operate using Voyagers with Pantograph vehicles or dragged Pendolinos. However, what about Llandudno-Manchester?

Chester to Man Picc is very busy, I was more thinking on the Crewe Kidsgrove set up as a relief.

Anyhow its not going to happen now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bob, I posted in another thread. I know of some survey teams that have just done an OHLE survey of the North Wales coast. Let's see if it comes to anything.




Looks like its come to nothing. But I really thought Chester was a goer. but all the leaks last week never mentioned Chester.
 

Polarbear

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As I recall, extension of the wires from Crewe to Chester was a costed option of the new WCML franchise. If that's the case, it may not be part of the HLOS statement, but will be up to the operator (either First or Virgin are the leading contenders) to stump up the cash.

There may be something when the winner of the WCML francise is announced (August 2012?) but personally, I'm not holding my breath.

As regards wires from Chester to Warrington, this could work if the Manchester - Llandudno service was split at Chester, with TPX say taking over the Chester - Manchester leg (as part of an enhanced Trans-Pennine network). However, realistically, I can't see that happening any time soon
 

aformeruser

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Mention of the Llandudno service going to Bradford suggests electrification won't be on the cards. Unless I'm reading Chinese Whispers.

While it's not specifically mentioned this time there was a proposal for a Chester-Manchester Airport service, with the Llandundo service running semi-fast between Chester and Manchester. This time they just say Manchester Airport services to suit demand.
 

cle

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It's deliberately vague as they don't know yet.

But we did kind of know from the TPE stuff that Chester would be getting a Victoria and Caldervale service - shame it's not a faster one like the Hull.
 

Holly

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While it's not specifically mentioned this time there was a proposal for a Chester-Manchester Airport service, with ... This time they just say Manchester Airport services to suit demand.
It's a very long way round from Chester to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss, even if it would be electric.
Considering that Mobberley station is less than a mile as the crow flies from one of the runways at Manchester Airport. Roughly 50 miles to the airport via Chat Moss versus 25 miles from Chester to Mobberley.

All of which just goes to show how bad the mid-Cheshire line has become consequential to elimination of 25kV at Altrincham and Manchester services cut short to Stockport Station in order to give Piccadilly paths to Virgin.

So bad that it would make sense to electrify Northwich to WCML (all three miles of it!) and run Manchester services from Northwich that way. It would be electric instead of diesel, a lot faster and would take pressure off Stockport viaduct.
 

aformeruser

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It's a very long way round from Chester to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss, even if it would be electric.
Considering that Mobberley station is less than a mile as the crow flies from one of the runways at Manchester Airport. Roughly 50 miles to the airport via Chat Moss versus 25 miles from Chester to Mobberley.

A shorter route could be built - but not for a while yet:

Network Rail said:
The creation of the third platform has meant that the capacity at Manchester airport will become constrained by the layover of the trains and congestion at the throat. In the future it is anticipated that extending the line underneath the airport towards Northwich will be required in order to enable the airport station to handle greatly increased traffic. This will allow for both future rail growth and the potential for new journey opportunities. However, this is not expected to be required before CP6 or later.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...utePlans/2009/Route 20 - North West Urban.pdf

So bad that it would make sense to electrify Northwich to WCML (all three miles of it!) and run Manchester services from Northwich that way. It would be electric instead of diesel, a lot faster and would take pressure off Stockport viaduct.

Using current timetables I'd estimate it would be around 45 minutes for Northwich-Piccadilly via Warrington Bank Quay including recovery time, intermediate calls at the ATW served stations and assuming it's not held anywhere to let a faster train through first.

The issue might be, assuming the train started at Northwich, would there be enough passengers on the Northwich-Warrington section for an EMU? Then you'll have the people from Knutsford saying that we don't have good public transport links to Warrington and asking for the service to be extended, which would mean either more electrification or using diesels.

There will be proposals submitted for dual powered tram-trains between Northwich and Manchester via Sale in the foreseeable future.
 
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It's deliberately vague as they don't know yet.

But we did kind of know from the TPE stuff that Chester would be getting a Victoria and Caldervale service - shame it's not a faster one like the Hull.

Good news for me on the Chester to Victoria route, so long as it is a stopper!
It will save me having to change off the Piccadilly train to the Victoria train at Newton Le Willows twice a day! A much quicker and comfortable commute.
 

aformeruser

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Good news for me on the Chester to Victoria route, so long as it is a stopper!
It will save me having to change off the Piccadilly train to the Victoria train at Newton Le Willows twice a day! A much quicker and comfortable commute.

If the Chester via Warrington line goes to 2tph and gets an Airport service as well it probably won't be the Victoria train that will do the intermediate calls, except for a couple of peak time trains in each direction.
 

merlodlliw

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Good news for me on the Chester to Victoria route, so long as it is a stopper!
It will save me having to change off the Piccadilly train to the Victoria train at Newton Le Willows twice a day! A much quicker and comfortable commute.

Its an interesting thought, Llandudno trains back to Victoria,now we have the Welsh Government connection with ATW, I do not see Llandudno trains going past Manchester to Bradford,there is not enough stock of 175s.But someone as realised pax travel West/East in numbers. I do see Northern running more to Manchester from Chester, we shall see.
 

Holly

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... Using current timetables I'd estimate it would be around 45 minutes for Northwich-Piccadilly via Warrington Bank Quay including recovery time, intermediate calls at the ATW served stations and assuming it's not held anywhere to let a faster train through first.
The issue might be, assuming the train started at Northwich, would there be enough passengers on the Northwich-Warrington section for an EMU? Then you'll have the people from Knutsford saying that we don't have .
45 minutes as compared with 65 minutes today for peak hour travel; that surely will attract customers who mostly travel all the way to Manchester. Greater savings if travel is to/from Greenbank or Oxford Road as it will be for many. A huge improvement.

Knutsford people will be no worse off as a result of turning the Chester trains back at Altrincham instead of continuing to Stockport. Except for the very few actually travelling to a Stockport destination.

Northwich-Warrington service (and Liverpool by changing at Acton Bridge) are just bonus journey opportunities that are simply not available today.

There really is no need to wait decades when three miles of electrification would do!


As to linking Manchester Airport to the mid-Cheshire line, it would surely make sense to share a right of way with HS2 from somewhere near Mobberley.
 
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aformeruser

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45 minutes as compared with 65 minutes today for peak hour travel

45 minutes would assume no pathing issues are encountered. Remember Manchester-Northwich can be done in 50 minutes on a Sunday.

Knutsford people will be no worse off as a result of turning the Chester trains back at Altrincham instead of continuing to Stockport. Except for the very few actually travelling to a Stockport destination.

Whoa - you didn't say that before. There's a lot more people travelling from Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham to Stockport and Manchester then there are travelling from Northwich to Manchester. Knutsford's passenger figures higher than the combined total of Lostock Gralam, Northwich and Greenbank so I can't see your ideas getting a good feasibility score.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its an interesting thought, Llandudno trains back to Victoria,now we have the Welsh Government connection with ATW, I do not see Llandudno trains going past Manchester to Bradford,there is not enough stock of 175s.But someone as realised pax travel West/East in numbers. I do see Northern running more to Manchester from Chester, we shall see.

If the Welsh government kick up a fuss they might lose the North Wales to Manchester direct services. The Manchester-Warrington-Chester needs attention and it is not getting that under the control of a Cardiff based operator.

I imagine if Llandudno-Bradford-Leeds goes ahead it will be 158 operated, with the 175s concentrated on South Wales-North Wales/Manchester services. Having 158 operation will easily allow a Leeds based crew or a Manchester based crew to take over for the last leg, like the Scotrail 156 services in England that see Northern crews operating them.
 

John55

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A shorter route could be built - but not for a while yet:



http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...utePlans/2009/Route 20 - North West Urban.pdf



Using current timetables I'd estimate it would be around 45 minutes for Northwich-Piccadilly via Warrington Bank Quay including recovery time, intermediate calls at the ATW served stations and assuming it's not held anywhere to let a faster train through first.

The issue might be, assuming the train started at Northwich, would there be enough passengers on the Northwich-Warrington section for an EMU? Then you'll have the people from Knutsford saying that we don't have good public transport links to Warrington and asking for the service to be extended, which would mean either more electrification or using diesels.

There will be proposals submitted for dual powered tram-trains between Northwich and Manchester via Sale in the foreseeable future.

I think you a being unduly optimistic about the time from Nortwich to Picc via Warrington BQ.

It is 15 miles from Northwich to Bank Quay and requires the negotiation of 2 slow junctions and the single track between them. I think you would be lucky to do better than 20 minutes for that stretch. It is 38-43 minutes from Bank Quay to Piccadilly which electrification won't make much faster. So a total of 58 minutes.

I think for the good folk of Northwich it might make more sense to try and get the peak hour paths back to allow a better service to Piccadilly vis Stockport. Current off peak times are 58 minutes via Stockport.
 

Holly

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Whoa - you didn't say that before. There's a lot more people travelling from Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham to Stockport and Manchester then there are travelling from Northwich to Manchester. Knutsford's passenger figures higher than the combined total of Lostock Gralam, Northwich and Greenbank so I can't see your ideas getting a good feasibility score. .
Chicken and egg.

Few commute by rail from Northwich to Manchester because service is less frequent and no faster overall than it was in the days of steam trains (Central/Oxford Road). Today it is significantly worse than when first generation DMUs were used.

I'll grant there may be a case for continuing a (Chester)-Knutsford-Altrincham-Stockport service if you say so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
... I think for the good folk of Northwich it might make more sense to try and get the peak hour paths back to allow a better service to Piccadilly vis Stockport. Current off peak times are 58 minutes via Stockport.
As I recall Virgin fought pretty hard and dirty for those paths.

Of course today an operator could run a diesel experimental service, peak hours only, to/from Northwich-Greenbank-Acton Bridge-Warrington-Manchester(any) to see how popular it was. It could be a pleasant surprise, enough to pay for one mile of electrification to Greenbank.

(Open access, available rolling stock, try not to laugh too hard!).
Not to mention the accounting nightmare of a TOC wanting to invest in electrification.
 
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aformeruser

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I think you a being unduly optimistic about the time from Nortwich to Picc via Warrington BQ.

It is 15 miles from Northwich to Bank Quay and requires the negotiation of 2 slow junctions and the single track between them. I think you would be lucky to do better than 20 minutes for that stretch. It is 38-43 minutes from Bank Quay to Piccadilly which electrification won't make much faster. So a total of 58 minutes.

Like I said 45 minutes would assume it's not held anywhere to let a faster train through first, which on a busy section of the WCML and the Chat Moss line with the extra traffic is very unlikely except on Sundays but it's not impossible that a fast timing can't be done on other days.

43 minutes for Bank Quay to Piccadilly includes very generous recovery time.

5 minutes for Northwich-Greenbank is based on 20mph running on the Leftwich viaduct. Work by Network Rail found the speed limit could be raised to 50mph for Sprinters and 175s (and presumably any EMUs), but it hasn't been implemented, so the time could be cut to around 2 minutes, if the service was kept Pacer free.

I did, however, overlook the fact that the train would go through Acton Bridge which it shouldn't do if it's a local service that can stop there without holding up following services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Chicken and egg.

Few commute by rail from Northwich to Manchester because service is less frequent and no faster overall than it was in the days of steam trains (Central/Oxford Road). Today it is significantly worse than when first generation DMUs were used.

I'll grant there may be a case for continuing a (Chester)-Knutsford-Altrincham-Stockport service if you say so.

Well if I was a rail operator I would priotise investment in an Altrincham-Middlewich-Crewe service and an Altrincham-Weaver Junction-Liverpool service and even an Altrincham-Weaver Junction-Preston service over your idea. Creating new links should make more money than creating an alternative link just for a small market town.

Even your local council may be against your idea. If it stops Chester getting a second Manchester service via Warrington I can't see them backing it.

The 06:59 Chester-Manchester service is overcrowded on departure from Knutsford and very busy on departure from Stockport but in your view taking 20 or so Northwich passengers off the service will mean there's hardly anyone on it from Altrincham onwards.
 

Holly

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... I did, however, overlook the fact that the train would go through Acton Bridge which it shouldn't do if it's a local service that can stop there without holding up following services.
It can certainly stop at Acton Bridge without holding up expresses by travelling down on the slow up line from Hartford Curve to the slow up platform at Acton Bridge.
Of course it could then itself be held up waiting to cross over to the down line.

That is kind of why that platform was put there in the first place over 100 years ago. It was later used to turn back push-n-pull steamers.

Yes such a novel service consumes paths South of Warrington but it frees up paths on the Stockport viaduct. And it doesn't have to be Piccadilly at the Manchester end.
 

tbtc

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The Manchester-Warrington-Chester needs attention and it is not getting that under the control of a Cardiff based operator

Yes - there's surely a large untapped market here - surely you could run double the existing number of coaches on this line, plus First Class provision too. But that's never going to be a priority for the Welsh Assembly. Shame.
 

John55

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It can certainly stop at Acton Bridge without holding up expresses by travelling down on the slow up line from Hartford Curve to the slow up platform at Acton Bridge.
Of course it could then itself be held up waiting to cross over to the down line.

That is kind of why that platform was put there in the first place over 100 years ago. It was later used to turn back push-n-pull steamers.

Yes such a novel service consumes paths South of Warrington but it frees up paths on the Stockport viaduct. And it doesn't have to be Piccadilly at the Manchester end.

Unless things have changed very recently there is no crossover to go from the Up slow platform to the Down line north of Acton Bridge.
 

merlodlliw

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45 minutes would assume no pathing issues are encountered. Remember Manchester-Northwich can be done in 50 minutes on a Sunday.



Whoa - you didn't say that before. There's a lot more people travelling from Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham to Stockport and Manchester then there are travelling from Northwich to Manchester. Knutsford's passenger figures higher than the combined total of Lostock Gralam, Northwich and Greenbank so I can't see your ideas getting a good feasibility score.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If the Welsh government kick up a fuss they might lose the North Wales to Manchester direct services. The Manchester-Warrington-Chester needs attention and it is not getting that under the control of a Cardiff based operator.

I imagine if Llandudno-Bradford-Leeds goes ahead it will be 158 operated, with the 175s concentrated on South Wales-North Wales/Manchester services. Having 158 operation will easily allow a Leeds based crew or a Manchester based crew to take over for the last leg, like the Scotrail 156 services in England that see Northern crews operating them.

I dont see Cardiff having its trains run Llandudno to Bradford,whatever happens Politics come in to play with the obsession of North/South,when the majority in Nth Wales travel West/East, we shall see. I agree Chester/Manchester via Warrington / needs urgent attention
 

aformeruser

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I dont see Cardiff having its trains run Llandudno to Bradford,whatever happens Politics come in to play with the obsession of North/South,when the majority in Nth Wales travel West/East, we shall see. I agree Chester/Manchester via Warrington / needs urgent attention

The 175s were originally ordered for North West and North Wales regional services. Paying for a refresh doesn't make the trains the property of ATW or WAG.

The problem will be all the proposed extra trains in to Manchester can't terminate there as there won't be enough terminating platforms and if through platforms are used for terminators then it will restrict through services from the East like Leeds/Sheffield to Liverpool.

If the WAG aren't willing to negotiate an extension to the service they may finish up with North Wales losing direct Manchester services or being told if they want a Manchester service that doesn't continue beyond Manchester then it will have to go via Altrincham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes such a novel service consumes paths South of Warrington but it frees up paths on the Stockport viaduct. And it doesn't have to be Piccadilly at the Manchester end.

I think you've got your ideas the wrong way round.

Crewe-Warrington needs additional peak services and the Stockport viaduct is congested so send 2 x Manchester-London trains in the morning peak via Warrington and 2 x London - Manchester trains in the evening peak via Warrington and paths are freed up via Stockport. Such a change could happen in December 2013 if it was included in the winning bid for the WCML. Withdrawing a service that's existed for years and setting up a new service would take years of planning before any electrification or new stock are even considered, never mind implemented.
 

cle

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A Manchester horseshoe!

Problem is that even more so, platforms 13 and 14 are going to be taking a hammering compared to the terminal ones. And it's slow to get out to Chat Moss...

I would recommend sending them directly to Wilmslow via the Airport line instead if a couple of paths could be found. This is never done really, and I think the time penalty would be low, if at all.
 

aformeruser

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A Manchester horseshoe!

Problem is that even more so, platforms 13 and 14 are going to be taking a hammering compared to the terminal ones. And it's slow to get out to Chat Moss...

I would recommend sending them directly to Wilmslow via the Airport line instead if a couple of paths could be found. This is never done really, and I think the time penalty would be low, if at all.

I was thinking one of the advertised benefits of Chat Moss electrification was that there are alternative routes from the WCML to Manchester and Liverpool. If Virgin drivers don't have fresh route knowledge of the new routes then they won't get used by diverted trains because the drivers don't know the route.
 

John55

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A Manchester horseshoe!

Problem is that even more so, platforms 13 and 14 are going to be taking a hammering compared to the terminal ones. And it's slow to get out to Chat Moss...

I would recommend sending them directly to Wilmslow via the Airport line instead if a couple of paths could be found. This is never done really, and I think the time penalty would be low, if at all.

If P13 and P14 are busy why not use P15 or P16?

I was thinking one of the advertised benefits of Chat Moss electrification was that there are alternative routes from the WCML to Manchester and Liverpool. If Virgin drivers don't have fresh route knowledge of the new routes then they won't get used by diverted trains because the drivers don't know the route.

If you divert services from Manchester via Chat Moss and Warrington you will effectively loose all the business on those trains from Manchester, Stockport, Stoke and Wilmslow. Is that worth it to provide a service from Warrington to Crewe?

Virgin retain enough route knowledge already for diversions from Liverpool via Warrington and Manchester so with 2 routes already from Manchester it doesn't seem to be worth messing up services from Manchester to London.

If you really must run an extra Virgin service via Warrington and Crewe surely much better to run from Preston or Lime St.
 
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