Cross border bus services/companies in Ireland

[ClydeCoaster]

There's few to no threads on Northern Ireland on here and I've often wondered how cross-border services work. Hopefully someone on here can elaborate!

Obviously bus services north and south of the border are regulated; in the north by Translink and on the south by the NTA. Am I right in that long distance/express services are unregulated on both sides, hence Aircoach, Bus Freda etc. working across the border?

Also, can buses registered in one part of Ireland operate services in the other? For example, when Lough Swilly were still around, could buses registered in the Republic operate school services in the North, and their service from Derry to Culmore Point which was entirely in the north?

I was just browsing photos of Lough Swilly buses and noted that they had both NI and Republic registered vehicles, as does Aircoach today, and just don't know how that works.

 

[johncrossley]

Obviously bus services north and south of the border are regulated; in the north by Translink and on the south by the NTA. Am I right in that long distance/express services are unregulated on both sides, hence Aircoach, Bus Freda etc. working across the border?

It is clearly evident from bus wars on the Dublin to Belfast service that services across the border allow unlimited competition.

Express routes wholly within the Republic allow a limited amount of competition. Each major route has a certain number of franchisees. Elsewhere in the Republic you can apply to run a commercial service but it has to be approved. In general, it can't compete directly with an existing route.

Commercial Bus Services

What we do Under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 (PTR Act 2009), the National Transport Authority is responsible for the licensing of public bus passenger services. Licensed public bus passenger services are often called ‘commercial bus services’, as they are operated without any public...

www.nationaltransport.ie

Anyone who is tax cleared may apply for a licence. Applicants who do not hold a Road Transport Operators Licence may apply once they can prove that they have the capacity to provide the service. Once the complete application is received and validated by the NTA, it is considered in line with the requirements of the PTR Act 2009 prior to making its decision.

These requirements include taking account of:

1. The demand or potential demand that exists for the public bus passenger services, to which the application refers, by considering the needs of consumers.
2. Any existing public bus passenger services on or in the vicinity of the route to be served by the proposed public bus passenger services.
3. The impact the proposed service would have on public passenger transport services that are subject to a public transport services contract on or in the vicinity of the proposed route.

The NTA has three decision options:

1. To grant the proposed services in full; or
2. To part-grant the proposed services, this can include refusing certain parts of the application, offering different service times, offering different stop locations; or
3. To refuse the application in full.

Once the applicant is notified of the NTA’s decision they have three options:

1. Accept the decision and submit all of the required documentation and/or fees to enable the licence to be issued, or;
2. Appeal the decision within 21 days of the decision notification. The application will then be re-considered by an appeals officer assigned by the Chief Executive Officer.
3. Cancel the application.

Translink has a monopoly on buses and coaches on routes wholly in Northern Ireland. No commercial services allowed.

 

[Simon75]

It is clearly evident from bus wars on the Dublin to Belfast service that services across the border allow unlimited competition.

Express routes wholly within the Republic allow a limited amount of competition. Each major route has a certain number of franchisees.


Translink has a monopoly on buses and coaches on routes wholly in Northern Ireland. No commercial services allowed.

Is that better than the system in the rest of the Uk ?

 

[markymark2000]

Is that better than the system in the rest of the Uk ?

Is any system which limits competition so strongly 'Good'? I'd say no. Lower competition means fares will be higher. Even European countries are starting to see that they should open up intercity coaches to competition.

The Northern Irish situation I would say isn't very good at all. Even if Translink have a full monopoly, competition should be allowed as competitors can offer something different and raise standards etc.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

It's been a while since I travelled by bus in the Republic of Ireland but on a localish route in Deonegal with no competition I do remember being quite shocked at how high the fare was at the time (and how poor the timetable was, which was a bit of proof that even nationalisation and regulation couldn't produce anywhere near a frequent service in a rural area).

So what's the deal with Aircoach's NI reg vehicles on the Belfast express service, is it a requirement if they're picking up passengers in NI?

 

[johncrossley]

The Northern Irish situation I would say isn't very good at all. Even if Translink have a full monopoly, competition should be allowed as competitors can offer something different and raise standards etc.

But would there be much interest in providing competing services? Maybe Belfast to Derry, but that is already well served by Ulsterbus coaches running half hourly. So competition would mean three or four coaches an hour, which is probably too much. Ulsterbus would probably have to withdraw from long distance services if you wanted to make a privately run service viable.

It's been a while since I travelled by bus in the Republic of Ireland but on a localish route in Deonegal with no competition I do remember being quite shocked at how high the fare was at the time (and how poor the timetable was, which was a bit of proof that even nationalisation and regulation couldn't produce anywhere near a frequent service in a rural area).

There is almost no population in Donegal. The only town of any significance is Letterkenny. Letterkenny to Derry is the nearest you get to a major route, and competition is (presumably) allowed on that anyway because it is cross-border.

County Donegal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Largest towns in Donegal (2016 Census)

City	Population
Letterkenny	19,274
Buncrana	6,785
Ballybofey/Stranorlar	4,852
Donegal Town	2,618
Carndonagh	2,471
Ballyshannon	2,299
Bundoran	1,963
Lifford	1,626
Convoy	1,526
Moville	1,480

 

[GusB]

We are specifically talking about cross border services in this thread; discussion about services wholly within Northern Ireland should be the topic of a separate thread.

 

[Flying Snail]

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[markymark2000]

Translink do not have a monopoly. Other operators are allowed run scheduled services and there are a few in existence.

You can't really run scheduled services though and by definition, a monopoly is a company having dominance with no or very little competition. Where is there competition for Translink?

 

[Flying Snail]

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[markymark2000]

Service Timetables - Rooney International

Service Timetables Newry to Belfast Express Fee Advice: Replacement Card - £10.00 Cancellations or Refunds - £5.00 Please note that the 14:30 TT & Sunday service have been suspended until further notice. All other times stated on our timetable are currently operating as normal. Thanks.

rooneycoachhire.com

Derry/Londonderry Service | Aircoach

Airporter is now Aircoach Our new Derry/Londonderry service is up and running from January 22nd. Book online from January 12th. Following the acquisition of Airporter, Aircoach is excited to provide enhanced connectivity to and from the beautiful North-West. Our extended 705X route will...

airporter.co.uk

As well as the competition on both Belfast and Derry - Dublin/Airport routes.

Those don't provide competition on the above routes.

As for the other routes that you mention, there are some partnerships with Bus Éireann. Any competition doesn't seem to do local journeys and as such would come under what you have said about the EU open border rules.

 

[Flying Snail]

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[markymark2000]

A Newry - Belfast bus doesn't provide competition to Translink's Newry - Belfast bus and train services, now you are just being silly.

Trains yes but in the grand scheme of things, Eamon Rooney is running 3 trips per day. Hardly going to hit Translinks bank balance is it!

Derry - Belfast International and Belfast City airports had no direct link from Translink, only connections in Belfast so a private operator saw a gap and started a route, sounds like competition to me.

Not really competition as it would be seen to regulators. Especially Derry to Belfast International, that wasn't covered at all in any meaningful way by Translink. Over to Belfast City, could be some competition but (based off the website), it seems that the smaller stops en route are only if you have booked them online (it says on request but how can you request the bus to stop en route when you don't know when it's due?) It's very minimal competition and again, the amount of potential passengers means that Translink are pretty safe that they won't steal too many passengers and they have a main market that they are focusing on and that isn't normal travellers, it's Airport travellers. An area which Translink aren't really focussed on.

Bus Eireann do not run any joint services with Translink any longer, they withdrew from Derry - Dublin years ago and stopped their share of Belfast - Dublin during the Pandemic. I don't know if they even accept each other's tickets any more on the Strabane-Omagh-Monaghan-Dublin corridor that both Translink and Bus Eireann run services on. John Mc Ginley coaches also run services competing with both Translink and Bus Eireann on that corridor to both Derry and Letterkenny.

As far as I am aware only the (formerly 3) Dublin - Belfast operations are using the EU rule to run without a seperate licence in either country, all other cross-border routes have pick-up and drop off in at least 1 if not both countries.

My mistake, I clearly saw an old timetable. John Mc Ginley, while they do compete in part with Translink (on the Letterkenny to Dublin route), they do serve other markets too and run at different times to Translink. The, on average, 3 trips per day (The same as that provided by Translink), again isn't going to break the bank. The competition is minimal. The Inishowen to Dublin route has only 2 stops within Northern Ireland, those 2 stops being in Derry itself. If John McGinley were to put restrictions in place to prevent local travel here, it should only be a cross border only service in terms of how it is licenced in Northern Ireland (Republic of Ireland it would come under their full licencing as it has local journeys that side of the border)

Bus Eireann competition is a bit different as the Republic of Ireland does permit direct competition, it just heavily restricts it.

I really don't know what point you are even trying to make, companies can set up services in competition to Translink and as I have shown there are some, the opportunities to run a profitable bus service in NI is going to be pretty slim.

They serve markets which Translink aren't interested in or would have minimal effect on Translinks bank balance. If someone tried a Derry to Belfast route though, that wouldn't happen would it? To basically say that the opportunities are slim but there could be some opportunities if it wasn't so locked down to competition.

 

[GusB]

I'd like to draw attention to post #7; the thread title is "Cross border bus services/companies in Ireland". Discussion of services wholly within Northern Ireland is outwith the scope of this thread.

We have no objections to any new threads discussing inter-NI services (provided that they comply with forum rules), but persistent off-topic posting is not acceptable.

 

[Flying Snail]

I'd like to draw attention to post #7; the thread title is "Cross border bus services/companies in Ireland". Discussion of services wholly within Northern Ireland is outwith the scope of this thread.

We have no objections to any new threads discussing inter-NI services (provided that they comply with forum rules), but persistent off-topic posting is not acceptable.

There, sorted.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The Aircoach 705x Belfast to Dublin route is contracted out by Last Passive Ltd (main Aircoach operating company based in ROI) to First Northern Ireland Limited (registered in Belfast).

There are said to be commercial advantages in doing it that way, since the Northern Ireland arm of First is able to benefit from some of the UK wide agreements of FirstGroup as a whole.