Cross Country - Get Some Extra Carriges

[IanXC]

The ROSCOs could buy stock now but they won't do without the guarnatee from the DfT that it will be used. The franchises only last 15 years so even if a TOC contracted to lease the stock for the entire term of the franchise this does not guarantee that the stock will be used full its entire life.

You're right to say that the ROSCOs could buy stock now but dont due to the lack of DfT guarantee the stock would have, however if *no* stock had such a guarantee then that issue would be removed.

Regardless of franchise lengths the ROSCOs would know that the vast majority of the services will continue so stock will be needed. It could even be signed for longer than the franchise length, in a similar fashion to the facility charge for Evergreen 3 which is attached to the Chiltern franchise.

There really is no need for the DfT to be stifling the ROSCOs procurement strategies with red tape.

 

[Zoe]

Regardless of franchise lengths the ROSCOs would know that the vast majority of the services will continue so stock will be needed. It could even be signed for longer than the franchise length, in a similar fashion to the facility charge for Evergreen 3 which is attached to the Chiltern franchise.

If you leave the TOCs and the ROSCOs to sort out rolling stock though you could have a situation where TOC A signs to lease the stock from ROSCO A for 15 years, the stock that is introduced is not popular so when the new franchise starts TOC B orders some improved stock from ROSCO B. You then end up with the original stock having no use and ROSCO A not getting any rent. If TOC A signed to lease the stock for longer than the franchise length then there is the danger that if they lost the franchise they would still have to pay for stock they are not using.

 

[IanXC]

If you leave the TOCs and the ROSCOs to sort out rolling stock though you could have a situation where TOC A signs to lease the stock from ROSCO A for 15 years, the stock that is introduced is not popular so when the new franchise starts TOC B orders some improved stock from ROSCO B. You then end up with the original stock having no use and ROSCO A not getting any rent. If TOC A signed to lease the stock for longer than the franchise length then there is the danger that if they lost the franchise they would still have to pay for stock they are not using.

Does that not encourage ROSCO A to ensure that they are procuring good quality, fit for purpose stock? Seeing as its their commercial risk. Moving the risk back to the Private sector where I thought it was supposed to be under our Privatised Railways?!

I wasn't suggesting TOC A's parent company lease the stock, but that TOC A lease the stock for their period operating Franchise Z, but also potentially for the next (eg TOC C) franchise period. So the stock would stay with the route after the end of TOC A's franchise.

 

[Failed Unit]

It would be Standard (as is now), Club Class (as is now I think) and first class
??
Virgin marketed 220/221 FC as club class due to it being inferior to 390s IIRC, or I could be imagining it?

You are right it used to be club on the Voyagers and First on the pendo to make up for the fact you got Breakfast and at seat service between Glasgow and Preston on a Pendo but you had to walk to the shop to get a soggy bacon roll on the voyager. That said you never paid less for the voyagers inferior service.

As for the master plan first, club and standard on a 4 car voyager would be interesting. 2 empty coaches and 2 rammed in like sardines so it would become first, club and "scum". Anyway it never took off.

 

[Zoe]

I wasn't suggesting TOC A's parent company lease the stock, but that TOC A lease the stock for their period operating Franchise Z, but also potentially for the next (eg TOC C) franchise period. So the stock would stay with the route after the end of TOC A's franchise.

But if say XC Trains Limited (the legal holder of the franchise) signed for the stock, would First Cross Country Limited (if they were the next holder of the franchise) be legally required to keep to a contract they didn't sign?

 

[RobShipway]

As a short term measure, until the DFT gets it's act together could the Class 180's that are lying spare not be used by Cross Country in pairs instead of at least one of the 4/5 car Voyagers?

 

[Zoe]

You are right it used to be club on the Voyagers and First on the pendo to make up for the fact you got Breakfast and at seat service between Glasgow and Preston on a Pendo but you had to walk to the shop to get a soggy bacon roll on the voyager. That said you never paid less for the voyagers inferior service.

I remember it was called Club Class on XC even before the Voyagers. Was smoking allowed in First Class on West Coast though? That may have been another difference.

 

[IanXC]

But if say XC Trains Limited (the legal holder of the franchise) signed for the stock, would First Cross Country Limited (if they were the next holder of the franchise) be legally required to keep to a contract they didn't sign?

I'm thinking of the same principle as the facility charge being used to pay for Evergreen 3, which will run past the end of the current Chiltern franchise.

 

[tbtc]

The ROSCOs could buy stock now but they won't do without the guarnatee from the DfT that it will be used. The franchises only last 15 years so even if a TOC contracted to lease the stock for the entire term of the franchise this does not guarantee that the stock will be used full its entire life.

Maybe not, but as I understand it the ROSCO would get more money from the TOC in fifteen years than the unit cost, so they'd still make a small profit (just not the obscene profit that they can make for renting a unit out for twenty/thirty/forty years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a short term measure, until the DFT gets it's act together could the Class 180's that are lying spare not be used by Cross Country in pairs instead of at least one of the 4/5 car Voyagers?

Apparently the 180s aren't cleared through one of the Birmingham Tunnels (Proof House?), so this wouldn't be possible, otherwise it'd be ideal (maintenance horrors aside).

I don't know whether getting them to run through New Street would require a box being ticked somewhere, or actual structural change to the tunnel/units though.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Well the DfT has already stepped in on one company and told them to strengthen their trains between afternoon peak trains.

They have told London Midland that a two car 170 is simply not enouh and that they have to strength their trains.

Result!

 

[37402]

As a short term measure, until the DFT gets it's act together could the Class 180's that are lying spare not be used by Cross Country in pairs instead of at least one of the 4/5 car Voyagers?

Could do, but only if someone else pays for driver training+TM training+lease costs. XC, in terms of timetable, are fulfilling what DafT have specified so from a purely business point of view there is no way they will spend the extra money associated with 180s. Personally don't agree with it, but that's the way things are set up at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

As a short term measure, until the DFT gets it's act together could the Class 180's that are lying spare not be used by Cross Country in pairs instead of at least one of the 4/5 car Voyagers?

All two of them? So that would be one in use and one spare, and loads of crews to train up. Not much chance, really

 

[route:oxford]

Perhaps people should be writing directly to the German government when they are unhappy with the XC experience.

Being a state-operated service, they should have the ability to do something about it.

 

[RobShipway]

All two of them? So that would be one in use and one spare, and loads of crews to train up. Not much chance, really

Sorry, but I could not think of anything else that has 125mph capability that is spare and available now.

With regards to training, how long did it take the Northern drivers to be trained on Class 180? I don't believe it was that long and two extra 5 coach trains is better than nothing as the only other alternative I can think of is to see if either West Coast Railway or DB Schenker has any MK3 125 mph trains that could be pulled by a class 67 if any are available, which from other threads I believe the answer ti that question is no that we would have to build some more class 67's, correct?

 

[MCR247]

180s are too wide or something for tunnels outside New St. It's not just that they arent cleared

 

[RobShipway]

What about Cross Country using the Pretendalino with the coaches being pulled by a Class 67, if it is not being used until the Winter timetable begins?

Something like this is what is being needed by Cross Country, so surely there must be an answer somewhere around the country?

 

[jopsuk]

You'd have to have a 67 at both ends- there's a distinct lack of runaround facilities, and the DVT isn't set up for 67s nor the carriages through wired for the AAR multiple working controls.

 

[TheBigD]

Was surprised to see that the Manchester - Paignton trains on summer Saturdays are now just single Voyagers. The 1005 ex Paignton yesterday was pretty wedged out of Exeter, but was nothing compared to the 0825 ex Penzance, which was just a 4 car yesterday and left lots behind.

 

[MCR247]

What about Cross Country using the Pretendalino with the coaches being pulled by a Class 67, if it is not being used until the Winter timetable begins?

Something like this is what is being needed by Cross Country, so surely there must be an answer somewhere around the country?

Where have you got this from, Prentendolino is used every Thursday and Friday, and before someone asks, yes it is needed

 

[RobShipway]

Where have you got this from, Prentendolino is used every Thursday and Friday, and before someone asks, yes it is needed

It was just a suggestion as to the type of train that Cross Country could do with as well as the Voyagers that could step in until a more permanent replacement could be found.

Surely, though with the new Pendolino's coming on stream to be used now by Virgin that would mean that the Pretendalino is availbale for charter, which certainly on days other than Thursdays or Fridays it certainly is at the moment, isn't it?

 

[The Planner]

67s lose the appeal once you get more than 6 or 7 on the back, the performance isn't there.

 

[jopsuk]

More so if you've got a heavy second loco DIT on the back?

 

[MCR247]

Where have you got this from, Prentendolino is used every Thursday and Friday, and before someone asks, yes it is needed

It was just a suggestion as to the type of train that Cross Country could do with as well as the Voyagers that could step in until a more permanent replacement could be found.

Surely, though with the new Pendolino's coming on stream to be used now by Virgin that would mean that the Pretendalino is availbale for charter, which certainly on days other than Thursdays or Fridays it certainly is at the moment, isn't it?

New pendolinos on stream? There is one in the UK, and when the others arrive, they'll be stored until the new franchise.

 

[tbtc]

180s are too wide or something for tunnels outside New St. It's not just that they arent cleared

Fair enough, but I've never heard them being "too wide" for anywhere else (as far as I was aware they fitted the normal envelope). Shame.

 

[boing_uk]

Perhaps this document might be of interest?

 

[starrymarkb]

That doesn't make sense, according to that it would require major works to run a 171 from Waterloo to Exeter, but is fine for 170s!

 

[boing_uk]

I noticed that as well, particularly for 180's to Blackpool. The maps were definitely not very clear.

 

[RobShipway]

Hangon a minute, the map is showing that a Class 171 can run on the line from Ashford to Brighton, but cannot run down the line from Waterloo to Exeter which is wider than than the tunnel between Hastings and Bexhill stations?

 

[MCR247]

Fair enough, but I've never heard them being "too wide" for anywhere else (as far as I was aware they fitted the normal envelope). Shame.

Well Ive probably got the reason wrong but they cannot run through Proof House(?) tunnels in Birmingham for what ever reason as Virgin found out when two were going to be hired to replace 033

 

[1018509]

I've noticed some Class 220 XC trains on the Bournemouth Manchester line have 4 coaches and some have five.

Are there 4 and 5 car Class 220's or do XC put in an extra carriage on the more heavily used trains?

They always seem very full to me and could all do with two or three extra carriage each