Cross Country Routes that never existed, but theoretically could have

[Sad Sprinter]

More electric freight might be able to get up the hills faster, possibly. Might get an extra path out of that.

Co-Co as well

 

[70014IronDuke]

It's firmly in the what-if territory, but I find the idea of an interworked Midland Cross-Country service with a hub at Derby quite interesting. You'd have 4tph on each of the London, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham legs divided between the various routes:

• 2tph London-Nottingham, avoiding Derby entirely
• 2tph London-Manchester via Derby & the Bakewell route
• 2tph London-Leeds via Sheffield

From St Pancras via the Erewash (I assume?) or KX - Retford?
Apart from the slight problem of finding cash to re-open the Peak Forest route, this would put six EMR long-distance expresses into St Pancras, plus the Corbies. Would that not cause a problem too?

• 2tph Leeds-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth
• 2tph Manchester-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth

I'm not sure it brings an awful lot to the party compared to the service we actually have, but it's fun to imagine!

It brings quite a bit to the party - potentially faster Sheffields and massive capacity/connectivity enhancements E Midlands - Manchester. And we could stop one of the Sheffieds at Alfteton to boot.

Not sure if 2TPH over Peak Forest would make economic sense though, even if BR had kept that route open.

 

[Zomboid]

From St Pancras via the Erewash (I assume?) or KX - Retford?
Apart from the slight problem of finding cash to re-open the Peak Forest route, this would put six EMR long-distance expresses into St Pancras, plus the Corbies. Would that not cause a problem too?

With a "hub at Derby" I'd assume it means extending the existing St Pancras to Sheffield service.
Wouldn't really compete with the ECML for London, but I don't know how easy it is to do Leicester or Kettering to Sheffield Leeds - or how many people would want to.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Apart from the slight problem of finding cash to re-open the Peak Forest route, this would put six EMR long-distance expresses into St Pancras, plus the Corbies. Would that not cause a problem too?

Almost certainly. To be honest the assumption is that the Peak Forest route remains open and St Pancras isn't chopped up between the MML, Kent, and Channel Tunnel services. Firmly pie in the sky, in other words!

It brings quite a bit to the party - potentially faster Sheffields and massive capacity/connectivity enhancements E Midlands - Manchester.

Yep, the East Midlands to Manchester service is what really makes or breaks it. My assumption is that it comes at the expense of Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester on the CrossCountry network, but that can probably be done with EMUs similarly to Birmingham-Crewe-Liverpool.

With a "hub at Derby" I'd assume it means extending the existing St Pancras to Sheffield service.
Wouldn't really compete with the ECML for London, but I don't know how easy it is to do Leicester or Kettering to Sheffield - or how many people would want to.

Exactly so - it's really an London-Sheffield and a Leeds-East Midlands service that combine.

What happens north of Leeds? I'm not sure. Probably some extensions to Newcastle & Edinburgh, maybe some to Glasgow over the S&C if we're really dreaming. Glasgow-West Yorkshire & East Midlands ought to be a decent flow but is weirdly underserved.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Good luck clearing the Settle and Carlisle for W10 clearance.

Would single-tracking through the tunnels as done between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings solve most of the problem, leaving only the over-bridges?

 

[Zomboid]

Would single-tracking through the tunnels as done between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings solve most of the problem, leaving only the over-bridges?

You could probably do a load of track lowers, but the real issue would be the cost of doing so.

 

[daodao]

Glasgow-West Yorkshire & East Midlands ought to be a decent flow but is weirdly underserved.

The Glasgow-West Yorkshire route still exists and could be recreated - I suggested an indicative timetable on the speculative S&C thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...m-and-ribble-valley-lines.235399/post-7265579

It is a policy decision not to provide any through fast service, but these decisions can be changed if the track is still there. In 1986, I received a letter from BR when I complained about the paucity of services on the North and West line, stating that this route was now merely a secondary route and that the main service from North-West England to South Wales was now routed via Birmingham. Yet 2 years later, through services (essentially hourly) were introduced from Manchester to Cardiff using class 155 Super Sprinters and the service today on this line is even more extensive and faster.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

You could probably do a load of track lowers, but the real issue would be the cost of doing so.

Which is why single-tracking the tunnels would be cheaper.

 

[Zomboid]

My assumption is that it comes at the expense of Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester on the CrossCountry network

The only direct trains between the second and third largest cities in the country? That ought to be a priority to keep.

 

[Indigo Soup]

The only direct trains between the second and third largest cities in the country? That ought to be a priority to keep.

I still have them, they just go via Derby. The principle of the thought experiment was 'What would the Midland Railway do with modern resources?', which is why it doesn't particularly consider the WCML.

But a Birmingham-Stoke-Manchester service is worth having, because Stoke is a pretty decent sized place in its own right - before CrossCountry, it was a self-contained service similar to Birmingham-Crewe-Liverpool. If you sent them off to the south, as is currently done, you'd need to do something different with the Manchester-Derby services. Probably demote them to a fast regional train and send them off to Nottingham, which is likely the bigger traffic generator.

 

[The Planner]

Would single-tracking through the tunnels as done between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings solve most of the problem, leaving only the over-bridges?

And all the ancillary signalling, reduction in overall capacity etc.

 

[cle]

Has there ever been a South Coast - Reading - West service.... so Brighton - Reading (via Olympia or Guildford) but then out towards Swindon and either Bristol or Cardiff?

Maybe not much need, but curious re historically. I remember Oxford and Banbury as North Downs extensions.
And now no Brighton - Salisbury - Bristol service of course.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

And all the ancillary signalling, reduction in overall capacity etc.

Yes, but would the route now be viable for trains carrying the largest containers? Only after that point is established should consideration be given to possible consequential problems. The number of inter-model trains per hour running between Weaver Junction and Carlisle is not enormous so diverting them would not add huge numbers to a very lightly used route originally built as a main line.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but would the route now be viable for trains carrying the largest containers? Only after that point is established should consideration be given to possible consequential problems. The number of inter-model trains per hour running between Weaver Junction and Carlisle is not enormous so diverting them would not add huge numbers to a very lightly used route originally built as a main line.

No, you look at the consequences and requirements as a whole. Just becuase it was a main line 60 years ago doesn't mean anything. You don't do something and then say "ah, that bit doesn't work now, what do we do?" and then wait another 5 years before you can fix it. Do these diverted trains work across the WCML at Farington, Blackburn, Daisyfield, through the long block at Clitheroe and across the job at Carlisle, what impact is there to the journey time, what other works are needed to keep the route going with an extra 1400t in each direction per hour etc etc...?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

No, you look at the consequences and requirements as a whole. Just becuase it was a main line 60 years ago doesn't mean anything. You don't do something and then say "ah, that bit doesn't work now, what do we do?" and then wait another 5 years before you can fix it. Do these diverted trains work across the WCML at Farington, Blackburn, Daisyfield, through the long block at Clitheroe and across the job at Carlisle, what impact is there to the journey time, what other works are needed to keep the route going with an extra 1400t in each direction per hour etc etc...?

You still haven't answered my question. Would single tracking through the tunnels be enough to enable trains carrying the largest containers to pass through without problem?

I think we all know that the orthodox opinion is that the Settle and Carlisle line is unsuitable for diversionary running.

 

[The Planner]

You still haven't answered my question. Would single tracking through the tunnels be enough to enable trains carrying the largest containers to pass through without problem?

I think we all know that the orthodox opinion is that the Settle and Carlisle line is unsuitable for diversionary running.

No idea, im not a structural or gauging engineer. I will assume it does, but still not sure what that proves.