Cross Country Trains - Potential Prosecution due to unable to produce railcard even though it had been purchased.

[CoffeeFan]

Please can I have some advice. My sons were travelling from Berwick Upon Tweed to Cheltenham on Cross Country trains in 3rd September 2023. Both had valid tickets and our elder son showed his 16-25 rail card, but the younger one couldn't as he's had broken his phone and was using an old smartphone but it hadn't let him download the railcard which he explained to the conductor and he showed the conductor the email stating I had bought the railcard (I has cashed in Tesco Clubcard vouchers to do). The conductor was very aggressive to our son and wouldn't accept this. He received a letter last month from a Bailiff (nothing from Cross Country Trains in advance) that he is being prosecuted. He replied back explaining the situation with a copy of the email, but had no response until yesterday when he's received a letter from the Prosecutions Unit with an out of court settlement of £175 for the settlement, plus fare avoided of £414.10 totalling £589.10 if paid within 14 days (the letter was received on the 8th and dated the 2nd October). He was 20 at the time, he had decided not to return to University due to the state of his mental health caused by two significant bereavements and has subsequently been working in minimum wage roles so this is a really significant fine to him. He has no history of fare evasion and it this seems excessive. Is there anything we can do? Even if we write to them, there's no guarantee he will receive a response within 14 days. Any advice is appreciated, thank you.

 

[wilbers]

Bit unfortunate if you still couldn't get the railcard on the train by using the other phone.

Was the option to buy a full price ticket on the train given?, the value of which could then be claimed in rail vouchers later once the railcard was shown to customer services. Says here that is the policy, and a penalty fare would only be if you refused that option.

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket, can I apply for a refund? | CrossCountry

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket,can I apply for a refund? Read on for more information about CrossCountry Trains after care.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

Please can I have some advice. My sons were travelling from Berwick Upon Tweed to Cheltenham on Cross Country trains in 3rd September 2023. Both had valid tickets and our elder son showed his 16-25 rail card, but the younger one couldn't as he's had broken his phone and was using an old smartphone but it hadn't let him download the railcard which he explained to the conductor and he showed the conductor the email stating I had bought the railcard (I has cashed in Tesco Clubcard vouchers to do). The conductor was very aggressive to our son and wouldn't accept this. He received a letter last month from a Bailiff (nothing from Cross Country Trains in advance) that he is being prosecuted. He replied back explaining the situation with a copy of the email, but had no response until yesterday when he's received a letter from the Prosecutions Unit with an out of court settlement of £175 for the settlement, plus fare avoided of £414.10 totalling £589.10 if paid within 14 days (the letter was received on the 8th and dated the 2nd October). He was 20 at the time, he had decided not to return to University due to the state of his mental health caused by two significant bereavements and has subsequently been working in minimum wage roles so this is a really significant fine to him. He has no history of fare evasion and it this seems excessive. Is there anything we can do? Even if we write to them, there's no guarantee he will receive a response within 14 days. Any advice is appreciated, thank you.

You mention bailiffs. This seems odd, as they would normally only be involved if someone was convicted.

Can you please post any and all correspondence in the thread with the names redacted? Thanks.

 

[soil]

what tickets did they have.

what trains were they on?

single fare is £213.50 before 930 mon-fri, otherwise £197.70. offpeak return is £199.10, anytime return is £414.10, there doesn't seem to be any basis to charge a return fare.

 

[CoffeeFan]

Bit unfortunate if you still couldn't get the railcard on the train by using the other phone.

Was the option to buy a full price ticket on the train given?, the value of which could then be claimed in rail vouchers later once the railcard was shown to customer services. Says here that is the policy, and a penalty fare would only be if you refused that option.

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket, can I apply for a refund? | CrossCountry

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket,can I apply for a refund? Read on for more information about CrossCountry Trains after care.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Thank you for your reply. The other phone was broken. He wasn't offered the option to buy a full price ticket.

You mention bailiffs. This seems odd, as they would normally only be involved if someone was convicted.

Can you please post any and all correspondence in the thread with the names redacted? Thanks.

what tickets did they have.

what trains were they on?

single fare is £213.50 before 930 mon-fri, otherwise £197.70. offpeak return is £199.10, anytime return is £414.10, there doesn't seem to be any basis to charge a return fare.

They were on an off-peak return on a Sunday. Clearly Cross Country are charging for a full anytime return. Thank you for explaining this.

 

[Snow1964]

When you say letter from a bailiff, is it actually from a bailiff firm, or a very threatening letter from someone like Transport Investigations.

If you can upload the letter (blank out reference numbers, your name and address, dates etc so they can't be identified on a public forum) and hopefully someone will be able to give more specific answer.

Finally, it is worth noting, there is a forgotten railcard policy, which normally allows one instance of it being able to send it in retrospectively. Has this already been done within last 12 months

 

[AlterEgo]

Bit unfortunate if you still couldn't get the railcard on the train by using the other phone.

Was the option to buy a full price ticket on the train given?, the value of which could then be claimed in rail vouchers later once the railcard was shown to customer services. Says here that is the policy, and a penalty fare would only be if you refused that option.

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket, can I apply for a refund? | CrossCountry

I've left my railcard at home on the day of travel and been charged for a new ticket,can I apply for a refund? Read on for more information about CrossCountry Trains after care.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

It's odd that XC mention penalty fares there. They are not a penalty fare operator.

 

[Titfield]

I note that the date given for travel was 3rd September 2023.

Has there been correspondence since then which has not been received or ignored?

This may explain how matters may have escalated to their current situation.

 

[John R]

It seems to me that XC has not followed the proper process which would have been to charged the traveller for a new ticket, which could then be refunded on producing evidence of the railcard held. The spirit of the National Rail Conditions of Travel is clearly that one instance (per 12 months) of failing to carry a valid railcard should not result in any penalty to the traveller. This should have been made clear to the traveller.

8.5 If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply.
8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12 month period.

However, noting @Titfield's point above, if correspondence has been ignored in the hope the issue will go away, it's not surprising that the situation has escalated in the way it has. Was the address given one at which they could subsequently be contacted at? If not, several letters including notice of court proceedings could have been missed.

 

[AlterEgo]

I note that the date given for travel was 3rd September 2023.

Has there been correspondence since then which has not been received or ignored?

This may explain how matters may have escalated to their current situation.

Yes - we need to see all the correspondence. It is unclear what the current state of play is. If the case is that old and hasn't been prosecuted, it cannot be, and so the correct action is to do nothing. The mention of bailiffs is a confusing factor here.

 

[Haywain]

The mention of bailiffs is a confusing factor here.

To say nothing of the apparent subsequent offer of an out of court settlement.

 

[CoffeeFan]

When you say letter from a bailiff, is it actually from a bailiff firm, or a very threatening letter from someone like Transport Investigations.

If you can upload the letter (blank out reference numbers, your name and address, dates etc so they can't be identified on a public forum) and hopefully someone will be able to give more specific answer.

Finally, it is worth noting, there is a forgotten railcard policy, which normally allows one instance of it being able to send it in retrospectively. Has this already been done within last 12 months

I think it was just a threatening letter mentioning bailiff's, as we still had to reply to Cross Country Trains....unfortunately we now can't find the previous letter.

I note that the date given for travel was 3rd September 2023.

Has there been correspondence since then which has not been received or ignored?

This may explain how matters may have escalated to their current situation.

We heard nothing. We have moved house but have a redirection on our mail which is working fine.

 

[Haywain]

I think it was just a threatening letter mentioning bailiff's, as we still had to reply to Cross Country Trains....unfortunately we now can't find the previous letter.

Whatever you have received, we can't give you any meaningful advice until the correspondence you do have has been posted.

 

[CoffeeFan]

Yes - we need to see all the correspondence. It is unclear what the current state of play is. If the case is that old and hasn't been prosecuted, it cannot be, and so the correct action is to do nothing. The mention of bailiffs is a confusing factor here.

It seems to me that XC has not followed the proper process which would have been to charged the traveller for a new ticket, which could then be refunded on producing evidence of the railcard held. The spirit of the National Rail Conditions of Travel is clearly that one instance (per 12 months) of failing to carry a valid railcard should not result in any penalty to the traveller. This should have been made clear to the traveller.

8.5 If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Conditions 9.1 – 9.5 will apply.
8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12 month period.

However, noting @Titfield's point above, if correspondence has been ignored in the hope the issue will go away, it's not surprising that the situation has escalated in the way it has. Was the address given one at which they could subsequently be contacted at? If not, several letters including notice of court proceedings could have been missed.

Thank you for your reply. I think it was just a threatening letter mentioning bailiff's, as we still had to reply to Cross Country Trains....unfortunately we now can't find the previous letter, which is a pain. We heard nothing from the time of the incident until a month ago. We have moved house but have a redirection on our mail which is working fine.
We decided with only a few days to go before the 14 day response time expires (let's face it, even if we write to them, they are not going to reply by 14th October) and the situation escalate, that we would pay, which we did yesterday. However, having seen a number of the comments on here, I think it is worth writing back to them to state he was never offered the opportunity present the railcard at a later date. Thank you all for all your comments, it's been very helpful.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for your reply. I think it was just a threatening letter mentioning bailiff's, as we still had to reply to Cross Country Trains....unfortunately we now can't find the previous letter, which is a pain. We heard nothing from the time of the incident until a month ago. We have moved house but have a redirection on our mail which is working fine.
We decided with only a few days to go before the 14 day response time expires (let's face it, even if we write to them, they are not going to reply by 14th October) and the situation escalate, that we would pay, which we did yesterday. However, having seen a number of the comments on here, I think it is worth writing back to them to state he was never offered the opportunity present the railcard at a later date. Thank you all for all your comments, it's been very helpful.

To be abundantly clear, this happened in *2023*? If that is the case, then any threat of prosecution fails, as they have a six month limit to bring proceedings. Are they suggesting civil proceedings?

 

[CoffeeFan]

To be abundantly clear, this happened in *2023*? If that is the case, then any threat of prosecution fails, as they have a six month limit to bring proceedings. Are they suggesting civil proceedings?

Yes, it happened on Sunday 3rd September 2023. As we hadn't heard from them, we thought nothing more of it until last month. The letter states
"Failure to settle this matter by the stated date above (14 days from the date of this letter which is 2nd October), will result in legal proceedings taken against you. In the event of a successful prosecution you will be liable of a conviction to a fine of up to £1000 as well as victim surcharge and any compensation that is requested."

 

[John R]

Yes, it happened on Sunday 3rd September 2023. As we hadn't heard from them, we thought nothing more of it until last month. The letter states
"Failure to settle this matter by the stated date above (14 days from the date of this letter which is 2nd October), will result in legal proceedings taken against you. In the event of a successful prosecution you will be liable of a conviction to a fine of up to £1000 as well as victim surcharge and any compensation that is requested."

As @AlterEgo says, they are out of time for a prosecution. They only have 6 months from the date of the offence. You should have ignored the letter. I would suggest that sending a letter threatening prosecution when they can't, and demanding money to avoid that threat is exceptionally poor practice.

 

[CoffeeFan]

WOW! I'm gobsmacked that a massive railway company is operating like this! I genuinely find it alarming!

 

[Haywain]

14 days from the date of this letter which is 2nd October

Is the letter dated 2024? Has the letter just turned up ridiculously late? None of this makes any sense - especially when you refer to bailiffs.

 

[WesternLancer]

We decided with only a few days to go before the 14 day response time expires (let's face it, even if we write to them, they are not going to reply by 14th October) and the situation escalate, that we would pay, which we did yesterday. However, having seen a number of the comments on here, I think it is worth writing back to them to state he was never offered the opportunity present the railcard at a later date. Thank you all for all your comments, it's been very helpful.

Even if you have now paid to avoid escalation there could be good grounds to do as you say and raise the issue of why he was not offered the chance to present the Railcard as per the policy etc - it may take a bit of to and from but they may give a refund.

However - to significantly increase the chances of any success of that
- it's indeed going to be key to share the copy of the letter here (personal details removed) for people to see
and
- get experts here to check the draft of anything you want to send them before you sent it so the relevant 'railway language' and pertinent T&Cs can be quoted in support of any such request
- and if it looks like they are in the wrong, help advise you how to escalate it eg to the Ombudsman if that might be helpful course

I'm sure people will be happy to help if you can help us help you.