Cross London ticket query

[och aye]

I'm going to be travelling from Edinburgh (EDB) to Kings Cross (KGX) on LNER and then from London Bridge (LBG) to Sevenoaks (SEV) on Southeastern. This will involve a jaunt across the river with the tube. When I booked the ticket on the LNER website I'm pretty sure it said that the transfers were included, but looking at my email receipt there is no mention about it.

Apologies if I'm being a bit thick, but as I understand from the National Rail, I think this symbol on my ticket (see attached photo) means that I can use the ticket on the tube? As a side note, while the website says "cross" it seems to more resemble the insignia of German Air Force.
Many thanks in advance.

Travelling in London | National Rail

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If your journey involves travelling via or across London to connect with another National Rail service, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on London Underground, DLR, Thameslink or Elizabeth line services between the relevant stations.

Your ticket will be marked with a cross ( + ) sign.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, that symbol is indeed the Maltese Cross which indicates that a cross London transfer is included in the cost of your ticket. I think the cross needs to go on a diet

The default principle is that - as a matter of consumer and contract law, and frankly common sense - the cost of any leg shown in your itinerary is included in your ticket(s), unless otherwise indicated. This includes things like the Underground and DLR as well as buses.

 

[Hadders]

The Maltese Cross symbol does indeed mean that travel ion the Underground is oncluded by any reasonable route. The ticket barriers will accept your ticket.

To be honest the most straightforward way is upon arrival at Kings Cross is to pop next door to St Pancras and take a southbound Thameslink train to London Bridge. Thameslink can be used for your cross London transfer at no additional cost.

 

[Adam Williams]

It would be useful if NRE actually used the correct glyph when telling customers what the sign should look like on their ticket (as the Maltese cross does not look anything like a normal plus +), but I have a feeling the heritage print format can't use the "proper" maltese cross and must fall-back to a plus-like dagger.

 

[paul1609]

The Maltese Cross symbol does indeed mean that travel ion the Underground is oncluded by any reasonable route. The ticket barriers will accept your ticket.

To be honest the most straightforward way is upon arrival at Kings Cross is to pop next door to St Pancras and take a southbound Thameslink train to London Bridge. Thameslink can be used for your cross London transfer at no additional cost.

I think that you have to be careful with that advice if the OP is travelling on an Advance Ticket as it may have a counted place reservation on the London Bridge to Sevenoaks section. National Rail Enquiries nearly always shows the Northern Line as the official connection from Kings Cross to London Bridge on Southbound Journeys in my experience.

 

[Starmill]

I think that you have to be careful with that advice if the OP is travelling on an Advance Ticket as it may have a counted place reservation on the London Bridge to Sevenoaks section. National Rail Enquiries nearly always shows the Northern Line as the official connection from Kings Cross to London Bridge on Southbound Journeys in my experience.

How does the reservation from London Bridge to Sevenoaks have anything to do with it?

Tickets with the cross-London marker can use any appropriate transfer by London Underground or DLR, and accordingly, any route where National Rail services accept LU tickets. Thameslink accept LU tickets between London St Pancras and London Bridge, so the ticket is valid. What NRE shows for the connection has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Hadders]

I think that you have to be careful with that advice if the OP is travelling on an Advance Ticket as it may have a counted place reservation on the London Bridge to Sevenoaks section. National Rail Enquiries nearly always shows the Northern Line as the official connection from Kings Cross to London Bridge on Southbound Journeys in my experience.

Clearly the OP is required to travel on the specified train between London Bridge and Sevenoaks but there is absolutely nothing to stop Thameslink being used for a cross London journey.

National Rail Enquiries doesn’t sell tickets and the itinerary issued by accredited booking engines don’t specify that the Northern Line must be used.

 

[paul1609]

Clearly the OP is required to travel on the specified train between London Bridge and Sevenoaks but there is absolutely nothing to stop Thameslink being used for a cross London journey.

National Rail Enquiries doesn’t sell tickets and the itinerary issued by accredited booking engines don’t specify that the Northern Line must be used.

Indeed but the LNER email should show the recommended way of getting from King's Cross to London Bridge. There are circumstances where if the OP ignored this and instead went to Thameslink at St Pancras he would miss his Southeastern service from London Bridge. This coming weekend for instance there are no direct services from St Pancras to London Bridge.

 

[JonathanH]

there is absolutely nothing to stop Thameslink being used for a cross London journey.

Certain Thameslink services, in particular those between St Pancras and London Bridge, are reservable too.

I don't think anyone would get called up on travelling on one without a reservation, but the need to have a reservation if the Thameslink service is part of an itinerary could potentially cause difficulties with availability of quotas.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Certain Thameslink services, in particular those between St Pancras and London Bridge, are reservable too.

I don't think anyone would get called up on travelling on one without a reservation, but the need to have a reservation if the Thameslink service is part of an itinerary could potentially cause difficulties with availability of quotas.

Its a cross-London transfer. Its neither here nor there

 

[JonathanH]

Its a cross-London transfer. Its neither here nor there

Yes, the only issue is if the non-availability of a quota pushes up the price.

Sometimes travelling in the late evening back from the North to South of London, it is necessary to force a journey away from the Thameslink route because no quota has been loaded to the Thameslink services.

 

[Edvid]

It would be useful if NRE actually used the correct glyph when telling customers what the sign should look like on their ticket (as the Maltese cross does not look anything like a normal plus +), but I have a feeling the heritage print format can't use the "proper" maltese cross and must fall-back to a plus-like dagger.

View attachment 139583

The great irony about all these Maltese Cross renderings in relation to GB rail ticketing (going back to the introduction of APTIS) is that none of them, including that Rail Alphabet graphic or the associated Unicode symbol (✠) are actually Maltese Crosses at all. It's actually a cross pattée, though until OP's ticket I hadn't seen one printed as such.

For comparison I've attached the Maltese civil ensign, which boasts a bonafide MC.

 

[Hadders]

The issue of reservations on a cross London transfer is a total red herring. The OP will have an itinerary that says to take the Underground between Kings Cross and London Bridge, it won't say you have to specifically take the Northern Line. It is perfectly acceptable to use Thameslink for a cross-London interchange, this is well documented and has been for years.

A cross London transfer between Kings Cross and London Bridge using Thameslink is easier to make than using the Northern Line, especially if there's luggage involved. As the OP is using an Advance ticket they must make sure they travel on the correct train from London Bridge but this applies whether the Underground or Thameslink is used.

 

[paul1609]

The issue of reservations on a cross London transfer is a total red herring. The OP will have an itinerary that says to take the Underground between Kings Cross and London Bridge, it won't say you have to specifically take the Northern Line. It is perfectly acceptable to use Thameslink for a cross-London interchange, this is well documented and has been for years.

A cross London transfer between Kings Cross and London Bridge using Thameslink is easier to make than using the Northern Line, especially if there's luggage involved. As the OP is using an Advance ticket they must make sure they travel on the correct train from London Bridge but this applies whether the Underground or Thameslink is used.

When it was a same platform interchange at London Bridge between Southeastern and Thameslink services I would have agreed with you. Now you have to go down to the concourse and back up I don't think there is a clear advantage to using Thames link over using the Northern line from the LNER platforms via the lifts to the Southeastern platforms at London Bridge.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed but the LNER email should show the recommended way of getting from King's Cross to London Bridge. There are circumstances where if the OP ignored this and instead went to Thameslink at St Pancras he would miss his Southeastern service from London Bridge. This coming weekend for instance there are no direct services from St Pancras to London Bridge.

Exactly the same could happen when the Northern line is closed. I'd have thought it went without saying that the customer should look at if a service is running before choosing to use it or not...

 

[paul1609]

Exactly the same could happen when the Northern line is closed. I'd have thought it went without saying that the customer should look at if a service is running before choosing to use it or not...

Indeed but this weekend there are Thames link services but just not serving London Bridge. Should a passenger who doesn't know what a Maltese cross looks like be given a recommendation other than to follow their itinerary.?

 

[Hadders]

Yes but in this w

Indeed but this weekend there are Thames link services but just not serving London Bridge. Should a passenger who doesn't know what a Maltese cross looks like be given a recommendation other than to follow their itinerary.?

The itinerary from the ticket retailer won’t specify the Northern Line.

 

[Starmill]

Yes but in this w

Indeed but this weekend there are Thames link services but just not serving London Bridge. Should a passenger who doesn't know what a Maltese cross looks like be given a recommendation other than to follow their itinerary.?

There's nothing to follow. Customers who want journey planning advice should look at the TfL website on the morning of travel to see London Underground or DLR status, and the National Rail Enquiries or another similar app to see live train departures.

 

[och aye]

Thanks very much to all of you who have replied with really useful information.

Regarding taking Thameslink from St Pancras to London Bridge. My ticket is an Advance single, but it doesn't specify that I should take the tube (neither does my email receipt). I'm not effected by any strikes as far as I'm aware. Another thing I should add is that I have specific train time for the London Bridge to Sevenoaks Southeastern service on my ticket, do I "need" to get on that train? The only reason I ask, is in case I'm delayed getting to London Bridge either with the tube or Thameslink, as Southeastern services seem to run every 10-15 mins (albeit with different duration times) at the same price in the afternoon.

Thanks again in advance.

 

[JonathanH]

Another thing I should add is that I have specific train time for the London Bridge to Sevenoaks Southeastern service on my ticket, do I "need" to get on that train?

Yes, you need to catch any actual train you have a reservation for if you have an advance ticket. The exception is where any delay has been caused by the railway.

In practice it would be very unlikely to be delayed crossing London.

 

[Sleepy]

You should catch the specified train from London Bridge, however in the same way as if the LNER service is delayed you can use the next available service if delayed during the transfer.

 

[och aye]

Thanks again for the replies. I haven't ever done a cross London journey before, so it's reassuring to know that barring any significant delays all should be fine.

 

[spag23]

As Hadders says, Thameslink is a better way of getting from Kings Cross/STP to London Bridge. Less stairs, less crowded, and bigger (air-conditioned!) trains.

 

[island]

When it was a same platform interchange at London Bridge between Southeastern and Thameslink services I would have agreed with you. Now you have to go down to the concourse and back up I don't think there is a clear advantage to using Thames link over using the Northern line from the LNER platforms via the lifts to the Southeastern platforms at London Bridge.

There is absolutely and undebatably a clear advantage to using Thameslink.

From a Northern line arrival at London Bridge you need to go up three flights of stairs and an escalator, through the ticket gates, down a few stairs, walk about 300 metres, through ticket gates again, and up another escalator to the Thameslink platform. If you use the accessible route via a lift you are spat out on Borough High Street and need to walk around a badly signed route to the mainline station, with an even longer walk.

From Thameslink platform 4 you simply go down an escalator, lift, or stairs, walk a few seconds to the next platform, and back up again by escalator, lift, or stairs. No material distance, fully accessible, no ticket gates, and no faff.

Incidentally this wouldn't (necessarily) have been a same platform interchange before the London Bridge upgrade works either. Thameslink down services used to go from platform 5, whilst the Southeastern services to Sevenoaks could go from platform 4 (different island in those days) as well at platform 5.

 

[och aye]

Just wanted to thank everyone again for their help I had no issues with c. @Hadders and @spag23 thanks in particular for the suggestion of using Thameslink instead of using the Tube as was suggested by my LNER itinerary. It was definitely a lot more pleasant way to get across London than using the tube.

As a side note, I wonder why LNER's booking system wanted to put me on the tube instead of another mainline train. I'm guessing that based on the timetable, the tube would technically have got me to London Bridge more quickly than using Thameslink.

 

[Haywain]

As a side note, I wonder why LNER's booking system wanted to put me on the tube instead of another mainline train. I'm guessing that based on the timetable, the tube would technically have got me to London Bridge more quickly than using Thameslink.

It's to do with the minimum interchange times required and the need to follow the timetable when using Thameslink. Going from Kings Cross to St Pancras adds in another major terminal with it's associated minimum change time which makes it worse than using the underground.

 

[yorkie]

Just wanted to thank everyone again for their help I had no issues with c. @Hadders and @spag23 thanks in particular for the suggestion of using Thameslink instead of using the Tube as was suggested by my LNER itinerary. It was definitely a lot more pleasant way to get across London than using the tube.

In future, if you book with the forum's site, you can specify to avoid the tube, to generate an itinerary involving Thameslink. You can specify this under "Advanced options"

 

[och aye]

In future, if you book with the forum's site, you can specify to avoid the tube, to generate an itinerary involving Thameslink. You can specify this under "Advanced options"

Thanks for the tip.