Cross London Transfer NOT Maltese Cross

[greaterangrier]

Above I have an attached a diagram (London only) of a fare that I have found from two stations (A & B).
It is Any Permitted, with no Maltese Cross.
All routeing points pass the fare checks.
Routes listed are LONDON and one other map combination.

What is the validity for crossing London?
1) Can you use tube services to transfer from London Liv St to London Fenchurch St? London Kings X to London Fenchurch St?
2) Could you break your journey on this transfer? - where at?
3) If you did, could you resume the return portion of your journey from London?
4) This ticket is Smartcard fulfillable. Would the barriers accept it?


Thanks in advance, and long live this fare!

 

[transportphoto]

What is the validity for crossing London?
1) Can you use tube services to transfer from London Liv St to London Fenchurch St? London Kings X to London Fenchurch St?
2) Could you break your journey on this transfer? - where at?
3) If you did, could you resume the return portion of your journey from London?
4) This ticket is Smartcard fulfillable. Would the barriers accept it?

1) No. LU will not accept a ticket without a Maltese cross. Realistically, I’d advise you to walk Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street.

2/3) Maybe, maybe not. Would depend upon break of journey restrictions for the ticket - you could break your journey at Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street and then resume as you normally would if permitted.

4) Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Benjwri]

1) No. LU will not accept a ticket without a Maltese cross. Realistically, I’d advise you to walk Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street.

Theoretically though the answer is yes, according to the routing guide:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

But as you say the chances of TfL accepting this are very very slim.

4) Maybe, maybe not.

It almost definitely won't open a London Underground barrier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What is the validity for crossing London?
1) Can you use tube services to transfer from London Liv St to London Fenchurch St? London Kings X to London Fenchurch St?
2) Could you break your journey on this transfer? - where at?
3) If you did, could you resume the return portion of your journey from London?
4) This ticket is Smartcard fulfillable. Would the barriers accept it?

1. No. But you would usually walk between Liverpool St and Fenchurch St anyway, given it is only half a mile and Fenchurch St does not have a tube station.

2. Depends on the conditions of the specific ticket. Same for 3.

4. Depends how outlandish the route is. If it’s the most obvious route then probably, if it’s a huge loophole then maybe not.

 

[greaterangrier]

Thanks for the quick responses and just to note, BOJ is permitted.


This fare is definitely not priced intending for the ability for the journey to London and back, so it seems that if I want this to stay, I'll have to be quiet about this.

I might add that I was not able to generate an itinerary for a tube transfer between London Liv St & Fenchurch St - is this because it is not marked for Cross London transfers?
I was however able to generate an itinerary for Elizabeth Line Stratford to Whitechapel, Whitechapel to Limehouse and continuing onto the line from Fenchurch St.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The "Any Permitted" routing without the Maltese Cross on such tickets wasn't an issue in the period between LTS Rail (as was) starting to call at West Ham and the North London Line service between Stratford and North Woolwich being withdrawn, as you could just jump on the NLL between Stratford and West Ham if required. Now you'd need to either use the Jubilee Line or DLR to make that connection, or London Overground between Romford and Upminster.

But essentially the cause of this is that Greater Anglia set a lot of fares between a cluster (group of stations) comprising Lea Bridge, Stratford, Maryland, Hackney Central, Hackney Wick, Homerton, Stratford International, West Ham and Limehouse; and a cluster containing a number of stations on both their route and c2c.

 

[Hadders]

If it's a good value ticket then I owuld not do anything to draw attention of staff to it while travelling. For example, arguing about validity at a London underground station could see the ticket being drawn to the attention of Greater Anglia so it gets 'fixed.

 

[miklcct]

If it's a good value ticket then I owuld not do anything to draw attention of staff to it while travelling. For example, arguing about validity at a London underground station could see the ticket being drawn to the attention of Greater Anglia so it gets 'fixed.

I would do anything to ensure that I get all the contractual validity out of the ticket, which means if I can't get through the underground barrier, I will pay by PAYG first, then contact TfL and the train company involved, pointing out how the Routeing Guide permit this routing and the error in the ticket, and ask for a refund of the extra tube fare paid.

 

[Hadders]

I would do anything to ensure that I get all the contractual validity out of the ticket, which means if I can't get through the underground barrier, I will pay by PAYG first, then contact TfL and the train company involved, pointing out how the Routeing Guide permit this routing and the error in the ticket, and ask for a refund of the extra tube fare paid.

I really would advice not doing that. It would be a pyrrhic victory and could lead to the swift removal of the fare.

Sometimes you just have to see the bigger picture.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would do anything to ensure that I get all the contractual validity out of the ticket, which means if I can't get through the underground barrier, I will pay by PAYG first, then contact TfL and the train company involved, pointing out how the Routeing Guide permit this routing and the error in the ticket, and ask for a refund of the extra tube fare paid.

Firstly there isn’t necessarily a contractual validity on the Tube, as there’s no Maltese Cross and the two stations- Liverpool St and Fenchurch St- are just over half a mile apart, which is well within walking distance. Just because it’s between two London stations doesn’t automatically grant the right to use the tube.

Why anyone would use the tube for that transfer is quite beyond me, given that it is a 0.3 mile walk to Tower Hill just to get on the tube.

Secondly, if it is a loophole ticket, that sounds like a very quick way of having the routeing “corrected” to prohibit use into Liverpool St and/or Fenchurch St. Depending on the exact stations involved, it wouldn’t be too hard to amend the routeing to mandate use of, say, Romford-Upminster or Barking-Hackney.

Not sure I’d go poking a hornet’s nest to save me a ten minute walk.

 

[JonathanH]

Secondly, if it is a loophole ticket, that sounds like a very quick way of having the routeing “corrected” to prohibit use into Liverpool St and/or Fenchurch St. Depending on the exact stations involved, it wouldn’t be too hard to amend the routeing to mandate use of, say, Romford-Upminster or Barking-Hackney.

Or Southend Central to Southend Victoria, or Barking to Wanstead Park / Forest Gate, or Barking to Stratford.

Really just needs to be 'Not via London', rather than 'Any Permitted', although it isn't obvious to me that it is much of a saving unless someone did a single journey A to London and London to B later in the day, and then completed the circuit by bus, between A and B.

 

[Watershed]

Firstly there isn’t necessarily a contractual validity on the Tube, as there’s no Maltese Cross and the two stations- Liverpool St and Fenchurch St- are just over half a mile apart, which is well within walking distance. Just because it’s between two London stations doesn’t automatically grant the right to use the tube.

If "LONDON" is a mapped route, then there is contractual validity on the Tube even if there is no Maltese Cross. From a legal perspective, it's irrelevant whether or not a cross-London transfer is logical; if it's permitted, it's permitted. Of course, from a practical and pragmatic perspective, as you say there is no point in using the Tube here.