Cross-London transfer times

[arb]

Mods' note: see Cross-London Transfer in the Fares Guide for cross-London transfer times

Is there a definitive list of the cross-London transfer times anywhere? I've been trying to work out if I'm entitled to any Delay Repay on a journey I made yesterday using split tickets across London. I'd left myself 29 minutes to get from Euston to Kings Cross, but a delay on the train into EUS meant I missed my planned train out of KGX. As far as I can tell by researching it now, that wasn't enough time for the connection, so no Delay Repay this time, but I've ended up completely confused about how it works.

I'd always assumed I had to take the connection times at the two stations and then add the "Fixed Link" time shown on brtimes.com. So for EUS to KGX, this is 15 miuntes (EUS connection) + 15 minutes (KGX connection) + 10 minutes (fixed link time), giving 40 minutes. This agrees with how long National Rail Enquiries shows for the tube journey if I try e.g. Watford Junction to Cambridge at 8pm next Saturday, 11th Jan.

But if I try the same journey on the East Coast website, it offers me an itinerary arriving at EUS at 2018 and departing KGX at 2053 - that's only 35 minutes to do the transfer.

Also, there's the option to "allow less time to transfer through London" on National Rail Enquiries, which reduces the time given for the tube journey to 32 minutes in this instance.

So, nothing is giving me the 29 minutes I'm hoping for in this particular instance, but for future reference I'd be interested to know where the times < 40 minutes are coming from, and what my rights are if I use these shorter times. Can anyone enlighten me? In this example, If I'd used split tickets and left myself the 32 minutes that NRE's "less time to transfer through London" suggests, or the 35 minutes from East Coast, would I have been entitled to claim Delay Repay on my split tickets? Or does it have to be 40 minutes?

 

[greatkingrat]

The 35 minute figure comes from the National Rail Timetable.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec13/Commercial_Information.pdf (page 43)

 

[yorkie]

Is there a definitive list of the cross-London transfer times anywhere?

You may find our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide useful. We have a copy of the table in our Crossing London section.

I've been trying to work out if I'm entitled to any Delay Repay on a journey I made yesterday using split tickets across London. I'd left myself 29 minutes to get from Euston to Kings Cross, but a delay on the train into EUS meant I missed my planned train out of KGX. As far as I can tell by researching it now, that wasn't enough time for the connection, so no Delay Repay this time, but I've ended up completely confused about how it works.

No, you are not eligible for Delay Repay as it was not a valid connection.

If you held Advance tickets, then you are lucky that discretion was shown.

I'd always assumed I had to take the connection times at the two stations and then add the "Fixed Link" time shown on brtimes.com. So for EUS to KGX, this is 15 miuntes (EUS connection) + 15 minutes (KGX connection) + 10 minutes (fixed link time), giving 40 minutes. This agrees with how long National Rail Enquiries shows for the tube journey if I try e.g. Watford Junction to Cambridge at 8pm next Saturday, 11th Jan.

But if I try the same journey on the East Coast website, it offers me an itinerary arriving at EUS at 2018 and departing KGX at 2053 - that's only 35 minutes to do the transfer.

Perhaps they took 5 minutes off, because the stations are close enough that you can walk, and there are two tube lines between the two stations as well as the sub-surface lines to nearby Euston Square, so disruption on one line isn't such a big problem.

Also, there's the option to "allow less time to transfer through London" on National Rail Enquiries, which reduces the time given for the tube journey to 32 minutes in this instance.

You may have been able to argue that case, though it's a grey area.

So, nothing is giving me the 29 minutes I'm hoping for in this particular instance, but for future reference I'd be interested to know where the times < 40 minutes are coming from, and what my rights are if I use these shorter times. Can anyone enlighten me? In this example, If I'd used split tickets and left myself the 32 minutes that NRE's "less time to transfer through London" suggests, or the 35 minutes from East Coast, would I have been entitled to claim Delay Repay on my split tickets? Or does it have to be 40 minutes?

The minimum connection time is shown as 35 minutes, so if you allowed 35 minutes and the connection is missed, I believe you are entitled to Delay Repay.

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is very interesting. It looks like the East Coast booking engine is using the simplified fixed link data ("FLF" file in the download from data.atoc.org, and not shown on BRtimes.com), which allows 5 minutes at all times of day. But National Rail Enquiries is using the more detailed data ("ALF" file from data.atoc.org), which increases the transfer time to 10 minutes after 7pm. Very interesting indeed.

 

[yorkie]

This is very interesting. It looks like the East Coast booking engine is using the simplified fixed link data ("FLF" file in the download from data.atoc.org, and not shown on BRtimes.com), which allows 5 minutes at all times of day. But National Rail Enquiries is using the more detailed data ("ALF" file from data.atoc.org), which increases the transfer time to 10 minutes after 7pm. Very interesting indeed.

It's been the case for a long time.

Yes the National Rail website will only show valid, but tight, evening connections of between 35-40 minutes for Euston <> King's Cross if you choose the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option. If you do not tick that option, some valid itineraries are not shown at the applicable times.

 

[arb]

If you held Advance tickets, then you are lucky that discretion was shown.

I had an advance into London and a flexible ticket out of London, which is why I didn't bother investigating this beforehand. I would have done if I'd had an advance out of London as well (or if it was late enough that I could have potentially missed the last train from KGX).

You may find our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide useful. We have a copy of the table in our Crossing London section.

The table there (and in the timetable also linked to earlier in the thread) generally looks very useful, but it ends the rather vague statement "extra time should be allowed during the early morning/late evening and on Sundays". Is there any official indication of how much extra time, or what constitutes early/late? I personally wouldn't have defined 7pm as "late evening", but other responses in this thread suggest that's the threshold time when the transfer time increases - e.g.:

This is very interesting. It looks like the East Coast booking engine is using the simplified fixed link data ("FLF" file in the download from data.atoc.org, and not shown on BRtimes.com), which allows 5 minutes at all times of day. But National Rail Enquiries is using the more detailed data ("ALF" file from data.atoc.org), which increases the transfer time to 10 minutes after 7pm. Very interesting indeed.

Ah, yes, I see that NRE allows 35 minutes instead of 40 minutes before 7pm (or 28 minutes instead of 32 with the "less time to travel through London").

Yes the National Rail website will only show valid, but tight, evening connections of between 35-40 minutes for Euston <> King's Cross if you choose the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option. If you do not tick that option, some valid itineraries are not shown at the applicable times.

It shows 32 minutes in the evening with the "less time" option - which this thread appears to be saying isn't valid?

 

[Searle]

Quite frankly, for a close cut call like that, I'd put in a Delay Repay form anyway, and hope for the best. You have nothing to lose!

 

[tony_mac]

As far as I know, there are no 'minimum connection times' actually specified for cross-London transfers (or other change of station connections).

The National Rail timetable specifically says the times 'are shown as a guide only'.

In some cases, such as Victoria to Euston, the journey planners give a much shorter connection than that shown in the timetable.
Hence, I don't think the times given can be conclusively called a definitive source for the purposes of delay repay etc.