Crosscountry- can someone explain the madness?

[Mogz]

OK, so I and others have complained for years (here and elsewhere) that CrossCountry trains are just too damn short and often packed to standing.

During the pandemic, some of us had to keep travelling.

On the core Birmingham to Reading section the frequency was cut from two trains per hour to one (getting rid of the Newcastle-Reading and retaining the Manchester-Bournemouth).

To compensate for this, the trains were doubled in length.

However, now that restrictions have been lifted and people are returning to work (meaning more travellers), the frequency has NOT been restored but the doubling up seems to have stopped on most services.

That means we now have more travellers but shorter trains and no increase in frequency. A worse situation than ever before.

Which joker decided this???

 

[Gems]

I can't answer the OP's question. But I'm always sort of fascinated with Cross Country. When Northern were briefly attached to Arriva and we could use Cross Country with our passes for free, we took a trip from Leeds to St Erth. OMG, I swear I needed anesthetizing for the return trip. It was a horrible, horrible experience. When I see passengers now with tickets to Plymouth and Penzance I could weep for them.

 

[JonathanH]

However, now that restrictions have been lifted and people are returning to work (meaning more travellers), the frequency has NOT been restored but the doubling up seems to have stopped on most services.

Of 16 trains today between Reading and Birmingham only three aren't double Voyagers, so doubling up hasn't 'stopped on most services'.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-06-13/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Admittedly there is a single Voyager on the peak time arrival in Birmingham and it is unfortunate that they aren't all doubled up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't answer the OP's question. But I'm always sort of fascinated with Cross Country. When Northern were briefly attached to Arriva and we could use Cross Country with our passes for free, we took a trip from Leeds to St Erth. OMG, I swear I needed anesthetizing for the return trip. It was a horrible, horrible experience. When I see passengers now with tickets to Plymouth and Penzance I could weep for them.

I just refuse to use them. They can be avoided for most journeys, and doing so is often cheaper, too.

 

[Mogz]

Ah not the norm then.

That is good news.

I get the 0755 Banbury-Reading frequently and that’s one of those that’s been chopped.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Haven't we been having complaints about overcrowding on Cross Country Trains for some time now?

Are Cross Country chronically short of available carriages? What percentage of their stock is in daily service?

Is there some cost imperative (reduced staffing or train leasing costs, perhaps?) that makes it cheaper to run short formation (and likely overcrowded) trains, than longer formation trains?

And is there anywhere on their network, which for reasons such as short platforms, can't accommodate longer trains?

 

[Towers]

Certainly on the Bournemouth runs most do seem still to be double Voyager. Completely agree with the OP that a lengthy journey must be hard work, unless of course you are fortunate enough to be travelling on one of their superb HST sets.

That being said, my opinion of the internal ambience of the 22x fleet improved significantly when the 800s appeared; the comparison meant that I was suddenly aware of their comfortable seating and cosy, non-clinical lighting!

 

[Mogz]

The trouble is, if you’ve never been rich you don’t know what it’s like to be poor.

I’ve been around long enough to remember pre-Operation Princess Crosscountry which operated with old hand-me-down rolling stock (mostly Mk2s) but which was actually very comfortable, had plenty of carriages and served a larger number of end destinations whilst providing a reasonably frequent service over the core network.

The current trains have been a downgrade for over 20 years, but most people now haven’t known any different so they just accept it.

I’m starting to feel old and I’m not even 40 yet!

 

[Horizon22]

The DfT / Treasury has a lot to answer for why XC is the way it currently is, including why they are one of the few companies still running such an amended service versus their pre-pandemic offering.

That being said I think XC overcrowding complaints have been going on for well over a decade, including semi-regular posts on this forum.

 

[142blue]

Is restoration of Manchester to Bristol services affecting the ability to double up?

 

[dk1]

Vast majority appear doubled up today.

 

[DarloRich]

I’ve been around long enough to remember pre-Operation Princess Crosscountry which operated with old hand-me-down rolling stock (mostly Mk2s) but which was actually very comfortable, had plenty of carriages and served a larger number of end destinations whilst providing a reasonably frequent service over the core network.

The current trains have been a downgrade for over 20 years, but most people now haven’t known any different so they just accept it.

Personally I think the XC network is about right. Sensibly they have culled all the non core locations that don't really offer anything. I agree about the trains mind ( and the past offering). The trains are really bad. Horrible. Agreeing with @Bletchleyite I just avoid them now. I cant be bothered with the uncomfortable chew on.

The HST services are the only ones I will use but they are so rare it just isn't worth it.

 

[Watershed]

Is restoration of Manchester to Bristol services affecting the ability to double up?

It's certainly resulted in some services being singled.

 

[thejuggler]

The trouble is, if you’ve never been rich you don’t know what it’s like to be poor.

I’ve been around long enough to remember pre-Operation Princess Crosscountry which operated with old hand-me-down rolling stock (mostly Mk2s) but which was actually very comfortable, had plenty of carriages and served a larger number of end destinations whilst providing a reasonably frequent service over the core network.

The current trains have been a downgrade for over 20 years, but most people now haven’t known any different so they just accept it.

I’m starting to feel old and I’m not even 40 yet!

Late 80s I felt like I lived on Cross Country routes with regular trips between Sheffield and Birmingham, Gloucester, Cardiff and the HST was a very pleasant place to be.

Since then I've only had occasional trips between Sheffield and Leeds, Leeds York and that was far enough.

 

[Snow1964]

I’ve been around long enough to remember pre-Operation Princess Crosscountry which operated with old hand-me-down rolling stock (mostly Mk2s) but which was actually very comfortable, had plenty of carriages and served a larger number of end destinations whilst providing a reasonably frequent service over the core network.

I grew up using cross country back in 1970s and through 1980s from my home near Bournemouth to the Midlands. Might not have been as frequent, journeys took bit longer, but never had to worry about crowding, the seating was never cramped and tickets (which you could buy on the day) always seemed reasonable value.

Now frequency (to Dorset coast) isn’t much better (actually lot worse on summer weekends), you have to plan ticket buying in advance (unless want to be ripped off), less comfort. So definitely gone downhill

 

[fgwrich]

The DfT / Treasury has a lot to answer for why XC is the way it currently is, including why they are one of the few companies still running such an amended service versus their pre-pandemic offering.

That being said I think XC overcrowding complaints have been going on for well over a decade, including semi-regular posts on this forum.

I would really like to know as well being a resident on the XC route - Winchester for example has only recently regained some of its XC calls, there are still plenty that sail through.

As well as that, there’s still a few gaps in the hourly timetable and I’ve noticed they XC services seem to finish a lot earlier as well.

 

[Geezertronic]

I get the 0653 Birmingham to Manchester Piccadilly service every Wednesday and it used to be a double but has recently been a single (the service arrives into New Street ECS with other 220/221s that form the Edinburgh service). Similarly, the 1827 return service was a single (to Reading) but has recently turned up as a double (to Bournemouth)

 

[172007]

I am a bit hazy, Didn't Aslef pull the rest day work agreement, re-instate it and then XC said they wouldn't agree to Reatday working?

If I am right then the traveling public have less trains causing over crowing due to industrial action by the company and most probably the Dft have sanctioned it?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I realise I'm going to be lynched for saying this, so I'll pop my head over the parapet briefly, then hide!
I quite like the voyagers, there only failure is being too ridiculously short. If they were all 12 cars there would be no problem for me. Obviously noone is going to fund that, so we're stuck where we are with the worst of all worlds. They can (over)fill the trains several times over, so don't have a need for cheap fares. But then passengers feel the journey experience is worse because they've paid more. But if they did cheap fares, imagine how many more people would travel.
I don't remember it being all rosy before voyagers. Sporadic services on short journeys is what I remember. Not a regular hourly long journey. Going Manchester to Birmingham every couple of hours and an odd one or two to Coventry or Poole isn't better than hourly to Bournemouth. HSTs were much shorter than the trains they replaced, so they shortened those too!

 

[kristiang85]

I just refuse to use them. They can be avoided for most journeys, and doing so is often cheaper, too.

Me too. I recently had a choice between one long distance cross country train and a shorter local train, or a journey involving four changes via various TOCs. I went for the latter, and did not regret it one bit.

 

[Magdalia]

The heyday of cross country was in the BR Inter City era between the early 1970s and privatisation. BR evolved a lot of once daily long distance trains into a coherent timetable with regular services on the main routes. And they improved the rolling stock culminating with new HSTs. In busy periods they backed these up with 5-6 coach unadvertised relief trains to eliminate overcrowding. It was a service that brilliantly combined the needs of long distance through passengers with the needs of those needing a regular service over shorter distances.

Giving all of that to the man with the beard was bound to end in disaster, and that disaster was called Operation Princess. The business model was long distance book in advance, like a plane, and that required a few long trains. The timetable was, on paper, brilliant for the regular service over shorter distances. But in practice it didn't work because, at busy times, most of the seats were reserved for long distance book in advance. The trains also fell between two stools: lots of 4 and 5 car units were good for the regular service over shorter distances, but not when the interior design was more like a plane than a train, which is rubbish for lots of people getting in and out.

The man with the beard rightly lost the franchise, but successors have been stuck with the trains and the timetable. I agree it is the worst of all worlds. My way forward would be to encourage open access operators to run long distance trains with few stops, like on the ECML, for the book in advance market. Let them use the Vomit Comets. The regular service over shorter distances needs some trains that are fit for purpose, not trains that pretend to be planes.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It would be useful to see the NRC for XC to see whether this level of service is being dictated or not.

An NRC for another TOC that I've read clearly outlines a 'no more than 80% of pre-covid service level'

Now it may be that XC just wants to milk high passenger numbers on the least services until it's staffing is higher (big recruitment drive started last year) but it could also not be their choosing

 

[virgintrain1]

Given two AWC Voyagers come off lease tomorrow it would be great for XC to take them. However I very much doubt the DfT will allow it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Giving all of that to the man with the beard was bound to end in disaster, and that disaster was called Operation Princess. The business model was long distance book in advance, like a plane, and that required a few long trains. The timetable was, on paper, brilliant for the regular service over shorter distances. But in practice it didn't work because, at busy times, most of the seats were reserved for long distance book in advance.

No, it didn't. It didn't work because, quite simply, there was overall a reduction in capacity. If you make something better (and in principle Princess was better, much better) and you reduce its capacity, what do you think is going to happen?

The business model was flawed in that it didn't allow suitably long trains to be obtained. Really, the Voyagers needed to be 7-car, or there needed to be enough of them for a lot more doubling up.

The trains also fell between two stools: lots of 4 and 5 car units were good for the regular service over shorter distances, but not when the interior design was more like a plane than a train, which is rubbish for lots of people getting in and out.

The Voyager interior is certainly badly designed, and something with a layout more like the 170 (or actually 170s) would have been better.

The man with the beard rightly lost the franchise

Nobody "loses" franchises in that way (bar where they are removed for misconduct, e.g. Southeastern). Either he didn't bid, or Arriva bid better, I forget.

but successors have been stuck with the trains and the timetable.

Yes, this is a problem.

I agree it is the worst of all worlds. My way forward would be to encourage open access operators to run long distance trains with few stops, like on the ECML, for the book in advance market. Let them use the Vomit Comets. The regular service over shorter distances needs some trains that are fit for purpose, not trains that pretend to be planes.

Yes, I'd agree there needs to be a review of XC and who it is meant to serve, probably involving a reduction in its frequency and the addition of a load of long, doors at thirds local services for the local traffic in the paths.

Given two AWC Voyagers come off lease tomorrow it would be great for XC to take them. However I very much doubt the DfT will allow it!

If all the AWC Voyagers don't go to XC then the world is mad. There are probably enough of them to both bin the (poorly utilised) HSTs and double up the services that need it.

(I expect the world to be proven to be mad )

 

[Beebman]

During the late 80s and early-to-mid 90s in loco-hauled days I used to regularly travel from Reading to Birmingham on business day trips and I regularly encountered problems. Overcrowding was a big issue on the evening services back from New Street, sometimes all the way to Reading. The coaching sets had only 6 vehicles, one of which was FC. Also punctuality was a problem, again especially in the evening when services from the north would often arrive 30-60 minutes late. The 47s had achingly slow acceleration especially from the temporary speed restrictions which seemed to plague the route between Banbury and Leamington Spa. Eventually I gave up and started driving to High Wycombe to take Chiltern's services when they started running through to Birmingham. I found them to be far more reliable and I could always guarantee myself a seat.

For me the big plus of the Voyagers is their acceleration but admittedly there's no much else for me to commend them. I stopped travelling to Birmingham on business in around 2003 but since then Chiltern from High Wycombe has remained my choice of route whenever I do travel to the West Midlands. If XC could regularly provide a more frequent service of longer Voyager formations then I might go back to them but apart from anything else their ticket prices lately seem to be much higher than in recent years.

 

[tonysk14]

I know this is probably a stupid question. But are EMR's Meridians likely to end up with Cross Country. Plus also the Avanti 221s.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know this is probably a stupid question. But are EMR's Meridians likely to end up with Cross Country. Plus also the Avanti 221s.

Yes, no, maybe. Discussed numerous times this year in other existing threads with absolutely no evidence either way. We know the west coast 221s and the East Midlands 222s both have ends of lease in sight. Everything else remains speculation.

 

[Magdalia]

Nobody "loses" franchises in that way (bar where they are removed for misconduct, e.g. Southeastern). Either he didn't bid, or Arriva bid better, I forget.

I can't remember either, and in a literal sense, you're absolutely right.

The business model was flawed in that it didn't allow suitably long trains to be obtained. Really, the Voyagers needed to be 7-car, or there needed to be enough of them for a lot more doubling up.

But with a flawed business model, he was unwilling or unable to make a competitive bid when the franchise came up for renewal.

"Rightly lost" was meant in terms of a flawed business model, not misconduct.

 

[The Chimaera]

When blaming Virgin for not ordering enough trains for XC you must remember that West Coast originally only ordered 4 221’s for use on the Holyhead services. When Arriva took over the XC franchise and the Birmingham to Glasgow services were transferred from XC to WC Arriva gladly passed over more 221 sets than they really should have done to WC (approx 20 sets) to save on costs. They have been short of units ever since. WC were happy to take them though because they wanted to increase services more than they originally planned, hence diesel’s have been running under the wires for the last 20 years.

 

[JonathanH]

Arriva gladly passed over more 221 sets than they really should have done to WC (approx 20 sets) to save on costs

Don't you think that was a strategic decision by the DfT?

The units that went to WC had to be tilting units to work in the 2008 timetable so that meant WC got 221s, which happened to be the 5-car units (although they actually got 18 5-car and 3 4-car 221s, later reformed to 20 5-car units).

XC got the five HSTs for four specific workings through Birmingham and Leeds.

The fleet split was almost certainly not in Arriva's hands. Later pre-2020 decisions, like not using the HST fleet as intensively and favouring extending a handful of services rather than doubling them up, will have been more in Arriva's hands.