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Crosscountry franchise is unnecessary and should not be renewed

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Sweetjesus

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Crosscountry franchise is unique in a sense that almost every route can be ran by other operators.

My suggestion is that the franchise should not be renewed and its routes should be operated by other TOCs of other appropriate regions.

It is also unnecessary for the routes to be so long, I suggest that all the routes should terminate in somewhere in Birmingham (or within west midlands) after passing through New St.

Rolling stock is a major obstacle though as it's expensive for operators to maintain 3 or so unique stock at their depot and train their staff on it. Perhaps this suggestion can wait until the voyagers are phased out?
 
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gazthomas

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Provocative... Why not terminate trains originating from London to Scotland at York or Preston? Seems a waste running through all that un-populated countryside in between. The whole proposition of XC is that it is "cross country", opening up direct travel opportunities to lots of places
 

Mag_seven

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I suggest that all the routes should terminate in somewhere in Birmingham (or within west midlands) after passing through New St.

Such as where? You will need turnback facilities with the associated signalling for starters! How many stations in Brum apart from New St/Snow Hill/Moor St have those facilities?
 

Metrailway

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I have some sympathy to the idea of subsuming XC into other franchises for efficiency reasons but would be against removing through trains. Possibly some sort of 'code-sharing' agreement or joint working may be appropriate for the longer distance routes.

Routes like Birmingham to Stansted should probably move to the EMR franchise.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd agree that XC-lite should be with other franchises. I'd probably say the East Midlands franchise for the eastern Class 170 routes and either LNR (WMT) or the Welsh operator for the western ones.
 

Clansman

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Ok, I'll bite.

If service length is the issue, you do realise that it is far easier logistically to conjoin two services together to form a giant through service, than it would be to keep turning back at Brum? It's perfectly neccessary for routes to be that long, as without it, you create more problems - and for what? Shorter services for the sake of it? That's pretty much why most if not all through Brum services are the lengths that they are, despite people rarely going beyond Brum when travelling from the likes of Scotland on XC.

The services may be long, but without them you'd have havoc on every other TOC and major stations to cope with the amount of passengers displaced from their direct services and forced to change trains, use services which otherwise would have complimented XC services like they do today.

There's literally zero logic or benefit from stopping the XC franchise and passing it's routes to other TOCs. Literally none at all. You merely suggest that the length of services are a justification in their own right as to why the XC franchise should be terminated? Have you any reasoning that could stand up to scrutiny?

If the issue is local commuters defecting to an intercity TOC, then where practicle you could argue that the answer is handing shorter routes over to more local TOCs (Stanstead to Brum, or Nottingham to Cardiff perhaps). If not, the answer to getting them onto local services without impeding on existing paths or the franchise structure, is by increasing fares. Not taking away the entire service all together just because the TOC or members of this forum doesn't like the market of passengers using the service.

When the case is as now, XC shores up paths for services that local TOCs otherwise would have run. LNER do the same, and Scotland is a prime example of this. Where an LNER service runs to Aberdeen, it reduces the ScotRail frequency from Edinburgh to Aberdeen to 1tp2h, as LNER fill the void to keep the entire line at an hourly frequency. XC is the same, and current infrastructure in most places can't handle anymore services to support local TOCs maintaining their frequencies. It's a basic give or take situation. Thus, at the end of the day, if any IC TOC is going to stop at stations, it must accept that as with all services, short distance commuters will shore up a larger proportion of this demand than longer distance commuters for particular areas of its journeys. XC is no exception to this any more or less than say LNER, GWR, or VTWC. Yet somehow, because it's XC, it all of a sudden becomes a problem related to the very existence of particular services or the franchise itself.

Baffling to say the least.
 
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Neptune

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I absolutely disagree that XC should be disbanded and services terminated in the midlands (it could only be at New Street logistically anyway which would cause far more problems than solve them). The whole point of XC is in the name of the franchise, Cross Country! It provides north to south links across the country that no other TOC can and from experience there are many journeys made that are long distance. It’s a bit like saying Transpennine should terminate all services at Leeds. Logistically a nightmare.

I can see the reasoning for splitting off the 170 services to more appropriate franchises but not the core north - south routes.

XC’s problem is capacity. The solutions for a better XC would obviously be longer trains, either with a new build (probably Hitachi built as that seems to be the obsession these days) or through a cascade of the remaining 221’s and 222’s once they come off lease.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Agreed that the Cardiff - Nottingham, Birmingham - Leicester, Birmingham - Nottingham and Birmingham - Stansted should be with other people.

Somewhat agree that other operators could run some trains that we currently call "Cross Country" (the proper Voyager / HST routes) and have some sort of hiring in of drivers from other franchises. Think the Cardiff - Portsmouth trains being driven by Arriva Trains Wales or Redhill - Tonbridge being driven by Southeastern.

You could suggest Manchester - Bournemouth and Manchester - Reading / Guildford / Southampton being operated by Virgin with drivers at Manchester and Birmingham; with South West Trains drivers based out of Southampton and Basingstoke doing some bits. The same goes for Edinburgh - Plymouth and Newcastle - Bristol (you would have to split them on two geographical half-hourly axis) which could be operated by East Coast with drivers based at Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Leeds; and hired drivers out of Derby, Bristol and Plymouth in a method similar to TransPennine/Freightliner with an FOC. Not sure you could call it LNER, however, it would need to be a sub-brand.
 

pdeaves

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IF (if) the XC franchise is scrapped the solution is probably to do what used to happen in the 'big four' days with through carriages. One unit runs through but it's operated by whichever company is in control of that area. However, even that will likely cause more problems than it solves, just different ones.

Given that most of the XC route overlaps other franchises, is this not the perfect franchise to keep from a political perspective? It creates 'on rail' competition that so many in government seem obsessed with.
 
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I absolutely disagree that XC should be disbanded and services terminated in the midlands (it could only be at New Street logistically anyway which would cause far more problems than solve them). The whole point of XC is in the name of the franchise, Cross Country! It provides north to south links across the country that no other TOC can and from experience there are many journeys made that are long distance. It’s a bit like saying Transpennine should terminate all services at Leeds. Logistically a nightmare.

I can see the reasoning for splitting off the 170 services to more appropriate franchises but not the core north - south routes.

XC’s problem is capacity. The solutions for a better XC would obviously be longer trains, either with a new build (probably Hitachi built as that seems to be the obsession these days) or through a cascade of the remaining 221’s and 222’s once they come off lease.

Agreed the XC freanchise works wit Brirmigham at the centre of its axis. The only route I think should be transferred away from the franchise is the Birmingham - Stansted along with the 170's and the 222's displaced from the MML used on Cardiff - Nottingham and strengthening other XC services.
 

bussnapperwm

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I'd personally carve up XC with the XC/WM 170 routes being one franchise branded as Central Citylink (with Cardiff-Nottingham services extending to Norwich replacing the east Midlands service and Leicester shorts extending to Hereford via Bromsgrove - the Stansted services merging with the Shrewsbury and Nottingham to Birmingham merging with a new Birmingham to Gloucester via Rowley/Stourbridge/Kidderminster/DTW/Worcester SH - calling at those points only).

The Voyager operated services should run as is but with addition of new Liverpool-Reading and Milton Keynes-Bristol Services. This network could be ideal as a service which inside the TfWM area is drop off into Birmingham/pick up out of Birmingham only. This franchise would get 9 car 80x units.
 

RLBH

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The whole point of XC is in the name of the franchise, Cross Country! It provides north to south links across the country that no other TOC can and from experience there are many journeys made that are long distance.
XC’s problem is capacity.
Which is of course a result of the fact that it's trying to serve two masters. XC is a long-distance TOC providing north-south links that aren't possible with other operators. It's also a local operator, providing local links.

Serving one market well with means serving the other badly, if you're limited to one set of services. High speed, limited stop services with intercity-type stock will give a poorer service at intermediate stations. Stopping at intermediate stations to pick up local passengers means you travel more slowly, and need regional stock to handle more passengers travelling shorter distances.

The Voyagers are intercity stock, and would be well suited in an ideal to a high speed, limited stop XC operation. To do that, you'd need relieving local services over the same routes, using Class 170s or something else, and probably run by the regional TOCs. That would probably look something like:
  • Cheltenham to Plymouth, operated by GWR
  • Oxford to Southampton, operated by GWR or SWR
  • Cheltenham to Derby, operated by WMT
  • Manchester to Oxford, operated by WMT
  • Derby to Leeds, operated by Northern
  • Leeds to Newcastle, operated by Northern
  • Newcastle to Edinburgh, operated by Northern or ScotRail
North of Edinburgh and west of Plymouth, the existing service is probably reasonable. Even the bits north of Leeds are negotiable, though they would also help to relieve TransPennine. Doing this would require finding capacity that presumably doesn't exist, rolling stock that doesn't exist, and money that doesn't exist to subsidise the service.

It might be 'right', on some measure of neatly classified trains by usage. But it isn't really practical, so whatever runs on the CrossCountry route will have to serve two masters badly, rather than one well.
 

Clansman

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Which is of course a result of the fact that it's trying to serve two masters. XC is a long-distance TOC providing north-south links that aren't possible with other operators. It's also a local operator, providing local links.
Take away the problem of capacity and XC is serving the one master of getting people from A to B on all stations it serves. Remember that where TOCs run their services are based on where the Dft and to an extent the TOC want them to serve, and not what the capacity of their rolling stock can handle. It's like many people are essentially implying that services should revolve around what the rolling stock can handle. Not that I'm suggesting that it is not a fair position to take, but where rolling stock capacity is the problem on a TOC with a long distance purpose, why solve the problem of capacity by creating the other problem of shoving masses of passengers onto other TOCs, breaking their longer journeys and with itthe very purpose of the TOC in the first place?

With XC, provide the adequate rolling stock, and all else will fall into place. LNER is proof of that. Nobody is talking about the issue of LNER serving local journeys at an even lower frequency than local operators, but because they provide adequate capacity and are increasing it, nobody is talking about suspending their services on such routes like those to Inverness and Aberdeen.

The Voyagers are intercity stock, and would be well suited in an ideal to a high speed, limited stop XC operation. To do that, you'd need relieving local services over the same routes, using Class 170s or something else, and probably run by the regional TOCs. That would probably look something like:
  • Cheltenham to Plymouth, operated by GWR
  • Oxford to Southampton, operated by GWR or SWR
  • Cheltenham to Derby, operated by WMT
  • Manchester to Oxford, operated by WMT
  • Derby to Leeds, operated by Northern
  • Leeds to Newcastle, operated by Northern
  • Newcastle to Edinburgh, operated by Northern or ScotRail
North of Edinburgh and west of Plymouth, the existing service is probably reasonable. Even the bits north of Leeds are negotiable, though they would also help to relieve TransPennine. Doing this would require finding capacity that presumably doesn't exist, rolling stock that doesn't exist, and money that doesn't exist to subsidise the service.

It might be 'right', on some measure of neatly classified trains by usage. But it isn't really practical, so whatever runs on the CrossCountry route will have to serve two masters badly, rather than one well.
Rolling stock capacity is key. As you say, cutting XC is not practicle at all.

Are people trying to imply that the routes of TOCs should entirely revolve around the type of trains they have? So in that instance, TPE should suspend all Scotland services, ScotRail should suspend all 170 operated Inverness/Aberdeen services, Northern should suspend all DMU operated Southport services and single pacer operated services around Yorkshire, and TfW should halt all Manchester services? Cut the routes, put all the rolling stock on the core, and where practicle hand the services to other TOCs to spread the burden?

Take the Newcastle to Edinburgh suggestion that others may agree with. ScotRail run services to Dunbar, soon to be Berwick, and Northern serve Chathill. Both TOCs serve all local stations in between. XC serve only Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth, and Morpeth. So really, XC is already serving the long distance principle stations that the franchise is intended to do. The exact same stations as long distance counterparts LNER, and soon to be TPE. So in the suggestion of handing Edinburgh-Newcastle's XC duties to local TOCs serving local stations, all Edinburgh (and the principle intermediate stations) to Newcastle passengers on XC services will force LNER services to full with standing, force ScotRail and Northern to provide an unnessessary service between Chathill and Berwick, clogging up that resultant all stop service, and extending the journey times for Edinburgh/Newcastle passengers who decide not to endure full and standing LNER services with an additional 20-30 minutes onto a journey on non IC suited rolling stock for a 2.5hour journey. What is the logic? Because Voyagers are the problem, so that all service must adapt, as opposed to solving the problem at source?

And then there's paths. Take Scotland as an example again. XC take up what otherwise would be ScotRail paths and serve local stations in the same way LNER do. They can't serve fewer stations, because they would end up running in to the back of the next local service its following. And if you could speed it up, you'd be held at Edinburgh for another 5-10 minutes longer until the original path becomes available south of Edinburgh. Take away the XC service, you'll have a ScotRail service with the exact same passengers, whilst other passengers somewhere in Aberdeenshire are forced to stand because a set had to be drafted in to compensate XC pulling out. Then all the long distance passengers north of Edinburgh will then get on that exact same XC service in Newcastle, 2.5 hours after boarding their full and standing all stopper to Newcastle or the LNER service getting held up behind it which is full and standing with those not wantin to endure the local service.

Alternatively, the DfT specify new rolling stock for XC at the earliest possible stage, and kill the problem once and for all. Afterall, nobody is moaning about LNER services north of Edinburgh, so why is XC different with their north of Edinburgh or west of Plymouth services? I'm sure if XC were using 9 coach HSTs, nobody would be batting an eyelid.

Not to come across that I'm slating your post, but I really am critical of the idea of cutting areas or all of XC from those who don't see the logistics behind it, nor the solutions that could easily solve the currnet problems without the chaos that wielding the axe would do for many TOCs across the UK.
 
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Sweetjesus

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Ok, I'll bite.

If service length is the issue, you do realise that it is far easier logistically to conjoin two services together to form a giant through service, than it would be to keep turning back at Brum? It's perfectly neccessary for routes to be that long, as without it, you create more problems - and for what? Shorter services for the sake of it? That's pretty much why most if not all through Brum services are the lengths that they are, despite people rarely going beyond Brum when travelling from the likes of Scotland on XC.

The services may be long, but without them you'd have havoc on every other TOC and major stations to cope with the amount of passengers displaced from their direct services and forced to change trains, use services which otherwise would have complimented XC services like they do today.

There's literally zero logic or benefit from stopping the XC franchise and passing it's routes to other TOCs. Literally none at all. You merely suggest that the length of services are a justification in their own right as to why the XC franchise should be terminated? Have you any reasoning that could stand up to scrutiny?

If the issue is local commuters defecting to an intercity TOC, then where practicle you could argue that the answer is handing shorter routes over to more local TOCs (Stanstead to Brum, or Nottingham to Cardiff perhaps). If not, the answer to getting them onto local services without impeding on existing paths or the franchise structure, is by increasing fares. Not taking away the entire service all together just because the TOC or members of this forum doesn't like the market of passengers using the service.

When the case is as now, XC shores up paths for services that local TOCs otherwise would have run. LNER do the same, and Scotland is a prime example of this. Where an LNER service runs to Aberdeen, it reduces the ScotRail frequency from Edinburgh to Aberdeen to 1tp2h, as LNER fill the void to keep the entire line at an hourly frequency. XC is the same, and current infrastructure in most places can't handle anymore services to support local TOCs maintaining their frequencies. It's a basic give or take situation. Thus, at the end of the day, if any IC TOC is going to stop at stations, it must accept that as with all services, short distance commuters will shore up a larger proportion of this demand than longer distance commuters for particular areas of its journeys. XC is no exception to this any more or less than say LNER, GWR, or VTWC. Yet somehow, because it's XC, it all of a sudden becomes a problem related to the very existence of particular services or the franchise itself.

Baffling to say the least.

I am aware it is easier to join two services together. However operational convenience does not number of potential operational issues it can cause.

The benefits:

1. Increased reliability - as it stands, there is a lot of slacking added to XC timetable which makes XC services seem to be more reliable than actually it is.
2. If paths currently used by XC were to be transferred to another a new franchise and the timetables were to be tightened, there would be a (however a slim) possibility to create a few new paths that otherwise would go unused due to performance reasons.
3. By virtue of having long service length means there are multiple timetabling conflicts across its route which are sorted out a long time ago, but it can be assumed this was at a cost - there would be more timetabling flexibility with shorter services which means it is possible to obtain a few more paths from this.
4. You state that this idea would cause a havoc with other TOCs due to passenger displacement. I must respectfully disagree - granted this idea would increase number of passengers changing trains however it should be stated that most of current TOCs either do not serve destinations that XC currently do, or is a slower/local service - passengers will still wait for next intercity train. This is coupled with the fact XC already advise passengers to change their trains at major stations outside Birmingham New Street and they do so without any issues. Most of major stations I can think of right now in West Midlands region are large enough to handle increased passengers changing their trains. With my idea, the minimum number of potential stations passengers can change is 3 - at the Birmingham New Street, first major station on an intercity service entering West Midlands region and a terminus of an intercity service which splits the passenger load across 3 stations which is still roughly the same as current XC services nowadays. The only main difference is that Bournemouth passengers lucky enough wanting to go to Manchester can stay on to Manchester without changing a train will have to change, likewise with passengers wishing to go between Northeast and Southeast.

Your explanation regarding to XC services needing to stop at local stations because there are no paths available to handle both local and XC services, so one must choose either of them - is essentially proving my point.

My major problem with XC service is not that they're overcrowded and local commuters use them because this problem can be easily solved if there's a political will.

My major problem is that everything has to revolve around XC because their service length is so long and passes through so many busy lines. It was not a long time ago people on this forum were discussing about timetabling constraints for new Leamington Spa to Coventry service and how to merge this service with Coventry to Nuneaton service due to timetabling conflicts at Coventry and XC were the one that was mentioned a lot due to their usage on Leamington Spa to Coventry line.
 

Flinn Reed

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I agree with splitting the CrossCountry routes, as the length of some services can cause delays elsewhere, which would be minimised if some routes were more localised. The longest services from Devon/Cornwall to Scotland are unlikely to be used for a large proportion of the route.

The Cardiff-Nottingham services could transfer to West Midlands Railway, and Birmingham-Stansted services to East Midlands Railway.

Then split other routes up, with services to the South West terminating at Birmingham, or possibly Manchester. GWR could take over services to Plymouth/Penzance, while the Bournemouth could go to SWR or GWR. Bristol-Manchester services could possibly go to WMR. Routes north of Birmingham could then go to either West Coast, LNER or TPE.
 

option

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The Voyagers are intercity stock, and would be well suited in an ideal to a high speed, limited stop XC operation. To do that, you'd need relieving local services over the same routes, using Class 170s or something else, and probably run by the regional TOCs. That would probably look something like:
  • Cheltenham to Plymouth, operated by GWR
  • Oxford to Southampton, operated by GWR or SWR
  • Cheltenham to Derby, operated by WMT
  • Manchester to Oxford, operated by WMT
  • Derby to Leeds, operated by Northern
  • Leeds to Newcastle, operated by Northern
  • Newcastle to Edinburgh, operated by Northern or ScotRail

WMT services are pretty much contained within the WMCA area, there's only Worcestershire not participating in any capacity currently. Herefordshire is awaiting membership.
Those suggested services would be majorly serving cities, & regions, that are never going to be part of WMCA.

Cheltenham-Derby is already limited stop, so is Manchester-Oxford.
 

VT 390

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I agree with splitting the CrossCountry routes, as the length of some services can cause delays elsewhere, which would be minimised if some routes were more localised. The longest services from Devon/Cornwall to Scotland are unlikely to be used for a large proportion of the route.

The Cardiff-Nottingham services could transfer to West Midlands Railway, and Birmingham-Stansted services to East Midlands Railway.

Then split other routes up, with services to the South West terminating at Birmingham, or possibly Manchester. GWR could take over services to Plymouth/Penzance, while the Bournemouth could go to SWR or GWR. Bristol-Manchester services could possibly go to WMR. Routes north of Birmingham could then go to either West Coast, LNER or TPE.
One of the issues with some of these suggestions is it would mean more terminating services at Birmingham.
 

sprinterguy

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Although preferable to be merged back into Northern is TPE practical to be merged with XC?
Given that Crosscountry is a Birmingham-centric franchise then, no, I don't think so. While XC traincrew depots exist along the line of the TPE network at Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh, I think the Transpennine services would still be something of an outlier.

They seem to have benefitted from more investment and attention to detail as a stand alone 'premier' service for the north than if they were merged into a larger franchise.
 

Kilopylae

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From a purely personal standpoint - I'm a regular traveller from Exeter to Manchester. Splitting up XC would be quite an annoyance for me!
 

Peter Kelford

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I do believe that XC serves an often under-valued role. It gets travelling people who otherwise wouldn't travel. It may not be instantly profitable, but much like those branch lines Beeching closed 6 decades ago, they provide a vital link in the network.
 

Peter Kelford

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More to that undervaluing is that XC doesn't seem to merit the same sort of investment as is seen on other mainline routes, like the ECML.
 

class 9

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There are a lot of people that do travel from the southwest to the Northeast, making these people change is a definite no.
99% of XCs problems would be solved by increasing capacity and I’m sure it would stimulate growth, as I personally wouldn’t dream of going from Yorkshire to Devon on a single voyager.
 

6Gman

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Most of major stations I can think of right now in West Midlands region are large enough to handle increased passengers changing their trains. With my idea, the minimum number of potential stations passengers can change is 3 - at the Birmingham New Street, first major station on an intercity service entering West Midlands region and a terminus of an intercity service which splits the passenger load across 3 stations which is still roughly the same as current XC services nowadays. The only main difference is that Bournemouth passengers lucky enough wanting to go to Manchester can stay on to Manchester without changing a train will have to change, likewise with passengers wishing to go between Northeast and Southeast.

Which are these "major stations" of which you speak?
 

Kilopylae

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Had to do that back in 2016 - it was a pretty awful journey, and the food trolley was cash only
There are a lot of people that do travel from the southwest to the Northeast, making these people change is a definite no.
99% of XCs problems would be solved by increasing capacity and I’m sure it would stimulate growth, as I personally wouldn’t dream of going from Yorkshire to Devon on a single voyager.
 

Iskra

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The existence of XC provides useful fare competition, where there would otherwise be none/little.

(XC's short trains do work against this though, so the cheaper fares are usually on the non-XC train)
 

Mogz

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I agree.

It’s also great for long distance travel where you have someone who needs to get from A to B without changing trains such as a young, elderly or disabled person (or just someone with a lot of luggage!) who can be put on the train at one end and met again at the other.

I would suggest that the Voyagers are replaced with 9 car bi-mode IET’s or Class 68/88 + Mk5A’s and offer the following as a minimum:

- 2 + 2 in standard with at least 50% tables. 2 + 1 in First.

- Family compartments in standard and business compartments in first.

- A buffet counter serving hot food with small seating area (“cafe” if not “restaurant” car?)

- Half a coach in the centre of the train set aside for bikes, bulky luggage etc.

Is it too much to ask? Discuss!
 

Meerkat

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Leaving luggage where it can’t be seen isn’t popular. Won’t get into the bikes argument here!
Who is paying for this capacity, fare rises?
 

Peter Kelford

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My suggestion would be passenger-carrying DVTs (Voiture Pilote), and 200km/h Electro-diesels. Perhaps purchased more or less ready-made from the Continent?
 
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