CrossCountry post-Arriva

[TheGuy77]

CrossCountry: Government raises 'serious concerns' about rail operator

In a scathing letter to the rail operator's interim heads, Louise Haigh puts the company on notice.

www.bbc.co.uk

The transport secretary has voiced "serious concerns" about rail operator CrossCountry and threatened to take action if things do not improve.

As CrossCountry is heading towards a Northern/TPE-style fate, it's probably time to talk about what CrossCountry could look like when owned by the DfT.

Personally, I think we might be getting some brand-new trains rather than carry on with the inefficient Voyagers, not only to head towards a more greener government, but also to increase capacity.

Perhaps a takeover of the Liverpool-Norwich route from EMR?

What do you lot think?

 

[JonathanH]

What do you lot think?

I think it will remain as it is with the addition of further Voyagers already announced. Anything else just isn't likely in the short or medium term.

There are a lot of threads about CrossCountry in the speculative ideas forum, including the open thread started in April https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ideas-for-improving-the-crosscountry-timetable.266534/. The letter from the Secretary of State doesn't really change anything.

 

[simonmpoulton]

I never did understand why the government immediately blames the private company for everything - if the DFT took it over tomorrow it would not change the fundamental problem of lack of drivers.
Same as when the DFT took over Northern - there wasn't any immediate improvement there either and lets be honest had Network Rail done the job with line upgrades on schedule then Northern would not have been in the same mess that it was.

I think they have to be very careful nationalising it all as planned because then the buck stops with them and they don't have anyone else like Arriva, First, Abellio etc to blame if things go wrong!

 

[Mgameing123]

I never did understand why the government immediately blames the private company for everything - if the DFT took it over tomorrow it would not change the fundamental problem of lack of drivers.
Same as when the DFT took over Northern - there wasn't any immediate improvement there either and lets be honest had Network Rail done the job with line upgrades on schedule then Northern would not have been in the same mess that it was.

I think they have to be very careful nationalising it all as planned because then the buck stops with them and they don't have anyone else like Arriva, First, Abellio etc to blame if things go wrong!

Blaming Arriva just speeds up nationalization process. There is nothing more to it.

 

[Trainbike46]

CrossCountry: Government raises 'serious concerns' about rail operator

In a scathing letter to the rail operator's interim heads, Louise Haigh puts the company on notice.

www.bbc.co.uk

As CrossCountry is heading towards a Northern/TPE-style fate, it's probably time to talk about what CrossCountry could look like when owned by the DfT.

Personally, I think we might be getting some brand-new trains rather than carry on with the inefficient Voyagers, not only to head towards a more greener government, but also to increase capacity.

I'd like that to happen but I don't think it's likely at all. I think the best case scenario would be taking the last few voyagers headed for storage, and that's it.

Perhaps a takeover of the Liverpool-Norwich route from EMR?

Just one question, why?

What do you lot think?

I suspect very little will change tbh

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If GBR is regionalised geographically XC could disappear, as could TPE.
But DfT has given no clue as to their plans for GBR - there are several options, including no change to current TOCs, or grouping them like BR's sectors.
All current TOCs are independent from each other, even the four DOHL ones.

 

[yorksrob]

Am currently on a four car voyager that's full and standing - but of course they're so awash with rolling stock they could afford to scrap their HST's !

Still, some things in life are reliable - death, taxes and XC being c**p.

I suppose it's good to be reminded of why I avoid this overpriced laughing stock like the plague.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

If GBR is regionalised geographically XC could disappear, as could TPE.
But DfT has given no clue as to their plans for GBR - there are several options, including no change to current TOCs, or grouping them like BR's sectors.
All current TOCs are independent from each other, even the four DOHL ones.

It almost certainly is going to disappear, the "how" is not quite there yet though.

Even before GBR was a twinkle in a minister's eye, there had been sensitive proposals to abolish the XC franchise, either through removal of certain services entirely or moving them into other franchises. COVID put the final nail in to that piece of work, but it's very much on the agenda again.

Consolidation of depots and traincrew is a high priority, especially as it has immediate and obvious benefits, with the only real work needed being TUPE, route/traction knowledge and later, perhaps a little harmonisation where practical.

 

[dk1]

Am currently on a four car voyager that's full and standing - but of course they're so awash with rolling stock they could afford to scrap their HST's !

I thought that was dictated to XC by the DfT.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought that was dictated to XC by the DfT.

I expect it was.

Either way, the company manages to be consistently dreadful.

And it's another four carriage Voyager. If you want a demonstration of everything that's wrong with the railway in this country it's XC.

 

[Snow1964]

Although it is now 10 months out of date, DfT has published the XC trains service requirements on its website.

50 pages of minimum service levels, frequencies, for each route etc

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/662a402a690acb1c0ba7e5ea/xc-trains-23-rail-contract-train-service_requirement.pdf

 

[Harpo]

Consolidation of depots and traincrew is a high priority, especially as it has immediate and obvious benefits, with the only real work needed being TUPE, route/traction knowledge and later, perhaps a little harmonisation where practical.

Consolidating depots would only add to the already huge training backlog. Train service consolidation would offer a faster solution, such as GWR becoming the sole operator west of Bristol, Avanti operating Manchester to Birmingham, etc..

 

[WelshBluebird]

Maybe not financially, but certainly from a passenger pov all XC have to do is get more carriages so a lot more services are able to be run as a 8, 9 or 10 car doubled up Voyager or equivalant, and actually get the staff so services stop being cancelled and units stopped being locked out of use during service (and so the proper timetable can be restored). Of course the "maybe not financially" is doing a lot of lifting there, but at least as a passenger the issues aren't actually that complex! Whilst the fares can be a rip off, the fact the services are often rammed says people will pay pay them, and if they are able to get more capacity then that offers to ability to actually have decent advance fare availablity whic his simply impossible right now!

 

[A0]

As CrossCountry is heading towards a Northern/TPE-style fate, it's probably time to talk about what CrossCountry could look like when owned by the DfT.

Personally, I think we might be getting some brand-new trains rather than carry on with the inefficient Voyagers, not only to head towards a more greener government, but also to increase capacity.

Perhaps a takeover of the Liverpool-Norwich route from EMR?

What do you lot think?

Unlikely there will be new trains - the Voyagers are mid-life, so unless there was somewhere they could be cascaded to, which is unlikely, I think they'll be the mainstay of the XC network until the early 2030s.

No chance on taking over Liverpool - Norwich. It would mean TUPEing staff over and probably some depot reallocation, as well as adding another DMU type to XC's allocation.

 

[Trainbike46]

Unlikely there will be new trains - the Voyagers are mid-life, so unless there was somewhere they could be cascaded to, which is unlikely, I think they'll be the mainstay of the XC network until the early 2030s.

No chance on taking over Liverpool - Norwich. It would mean TUPEing staff over and probably some depot reallocation, as well as adding another DMU type to XC's allocation.

The experience of leased trains does in fact show that at times mid-life trains get returned to the ROSCO without a home for them to go to - In recent times this has mostly been EMUs, however there's nothing special about the voyagers making them immune, and it is exactly what is happening with the 222s.

While this may be financially unwise in the long term if the intention is to continue leasing trains, as ROSCOs will price in the risk of early retirement, it has no financial penalties in the short term for the TOC or the government, which is why it has happened repeatedly

 

[Halish Railway]

As many have previously alluded to, I wouldn’t be too surprised if XC’s assets were consolidated with other former TOCs post-nationalisation, involving various TUPEing, probably in the style of former TPE routes going to Northern in 2016 and the consolidation of separate fleets, for example XC and EMR’s 170s.

 

[TheGuy77]

One of my ideas (while I can still post on this thread):

• Transfer the Brum-Stansted, Brum-Leicester and Brum-Notts services to EMR, along with XC's turbostars.
• Divert the Manchester-Bristol service to Cardiff via Gloucester to replace the Notts-Cardiff service, but keep the Paignton services, with all of them calling at Weston SM.
• Use the ex-Avanti units to replace 4-car workings and use said trains in pairs on the Manc-Bournemouth and Edinburgh-Plymouth services.
• Order brand new bi-modal trains (to work with the voyage) along with the replacement of the GC fleet.
• Re-introduce/keep the cafe on all units.
• Increase Glasgow, Aberdeen and Penzance services to 3tpd each (one in morning peak, one during the day and one in evening peak)
• Increase the Reading-Newcastle service to hourly, using 5-car (221) sets. The 1tpd Notts-Bournemouth is diverted to Newcastle, also being increased to 3tpd.
• Stop calling at unnecessary and unpopular stations, like Markinch, Ladybank and Cupar.

• Addition of a shuttle service from Bristol-Cardiff

 

[A S Leib]

Why should Liverpool – Norwich, a service broadly centered around Nottingham and Sheffield, go to a TOC almost exclusively operating services to, from and through Birmingham (at least as long as CrossCountry exists as a separate entity)?

• Increase Glasgow, Aberdeen and Penzance services to 3tpd each (one in morning peak, one during the day and one in evening peak)

The 18:18 Aberdeen to Leeds LNER gets there at 01:01; I don't think there'd be a proper evening peak service from Aberdeen to Sheffield or Birmingham in the near future.

• Increase the Reading-Newcastle service to hourly, using 5-car (221) sets. The 1tpd Notts-Bournemouth is diverted to Newcastle, also being increased to 3tpd.

Is there enough capacity between York and Newcastle with the third hourly LNER Newcastle service (but without the Newcastle – Manchester Airport TPE returning)?

• Stop calling at unnecessary and unpopular stations, like Markinch, Ladybank and Cupar.

I don't necessarily disagree given how closely current XC services at those stations are timetabled to ScotRail services, at least from a quick look, but which other stations would lose CrossCountry services, and how much benefit would that give?

 

[swt_passenger]

One of my ideas (while I can still post on this thread):

• Increase the Reading-Newcastle service to hourly, using 5-car (221) sets. The 1tpd Notts-Bournemouth is diverted to Newcastle, also being increased to 3tpd.

That one tpd Nottingham to Bournemouth (there’s no return), is effectively an early morning positioning move from Central Rivers to form a New St to Bournemouth service, returning north as part of the normal Manchester hourly pattern.

How could it possibly be extended TO Newcastle? Did you mean start it from Newcastle at about 0400?

 

[TheGuy77]

It seems like there are a few problems with my ideas so let's fix them:

The 18:18 Aberdeen to Leeds LNER gets there at 01:01; I don't think there'd be a proper evening peak service from Aberdeen to Sheffield or Birmingham in the near future.

Mind you, that wouldn't be a good idea. Let's have one train per day in each direction Aberdeen-Plymouth, 7am-7pm. As well as an Aberdeen-Birmingham service, 12pm-8pm. We could then have an extra Sheffield-Aberdeen service, in each direction 4pm-midnight. This still gives 3tpd to Aberdeen.

We could also do a similar approach with Penzance, 1tpd to Glasgow, 1 to Newcastle and 1 to Birmingham.

As with Glasgow, 1tpd would be to Penzance (see above), 1 to Bristol and 1 to Birmingham.

Is there enough capacity between York and Newcastle with the third hourly LNER Newcastle service (but without the Newcastle – Manchester Airport TPE returning)?

The TRU can have a big factor in how many trains we can run. We could have 1tp2h Newcastle-Reading via Doncaster as usual. The other train could run from Leeds-Southampton (maybe even Bournemouth), not via Doncaster.

That one tpd Nottingham to Bournemouth (there’s no return), is effectively an early morning positioning move from Central Rivers to form a New St to Bournemouth service, returning north as part of the normal Manchester hourly pattern.

How could it possibly be extended TO Newcastle? Did you mean start it from Newcastle at about 0400?

Scrap the Newcastle plan. The 1tpd Notts-Bournemouth service could start at Derby or Sheffield, in addition to the Newcastle-Reading and Leeds-Bournemouth services. The 3tpd from Bournemouth-Newcastle would all be extended (from the normal Reading pattern) and be return journeys.

I don't necessarily disagree given how closely current XC services at those stations are timetabled to ScotRail services, at least from a quick look, but which other stations would lose CrossCountry services, and how much benefit would that give?

Well, I'm not really planning on overall reducing the amount of stations XC serves, just moving calling points from small stations (like Ladybank) and moving them to larger stations (like Weston SM or Chesterfield). It just means that people are incentivised to use other operators for shorter trips and relieve overcrowding.

 

[Russel]

• Stop calling at unnecessary and unpopular stations, like Markinch, Ladybank and Cupar.

What would this achieve?

 

[TheGuy77]

What would this achieve?

As I said, here:

It just means that people are incentivised to use other operators for shorter trips and relieve overcrowding.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

One of my ideas (while I can still post on this thread):

• Transfer the Brum-Stansted, Brum-Leicester and Brum-Notts services to EMR, along with XC's turbostars.

This one I do agree with, with TfW then ordering a second batch of 197s to work the remaining Cardiff - Birmingham service, and to replace 153s, 230s and MK4s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one I do agree with, with TfW then ordering a second batch of 197s to work the remaining Cardiff - Birmingham service, and to replace 153s, 230s and MK4s.

Agreed. The regional express services are a poor fit in XC - let it do its core job, it's bad enough at that without worrying about other stuff.

 

[Kite159]

One of my ideas (while I can still post on this thread):

• Transfer the Brum-Stansted, Brum-Leicester and Brum-Notts services to EMR, along with XC's turbostars.
• Divert the Manchester-Bristol service to Cardiff via Gloucester to replace the Notts-Cardiff service, but keep the Paignton services, with all of them calling at Weston SM.
• Use the ex-Avanti units to replace 4-car workings and use said trains in pairs on the Manc-Bournemouth and Edinburgh-Plymouth services.
• Order brand new bi-modal trains (to work with the voyage) along with the replacement of the GC fleet.
• Re-introduce/keep the cafe on all units.
• Increase Glasgow, Aberdeen and Penzance services to 3tpd each (one in morning peak, one during the day and one in evening peak)
• Increase the Reading-Newcastle service to hourly, using 5-car (221) sets. The 1tpd Notts-Bournemouth is diverted to Newcastle, also being increased to 3tpd.
• Stop calling at unnecessary and unpopular stations, like Markinch, Ladybank and Cupar.

• Addition of a shuttle service from Bristol-Cardiff

Which would be a bit pointless considering the XC will probably just catch up with a ScotRail service sooner than it does, or end up sitting at Haymarket/Edinburgh for longer as the path from Edinburgh towards England is probably more fixed.

And you would reduce the frequency of Cheltenham - Bristol by 1tph so those units can head towards Cardiff, other than in the hours they are extending to Paignton. Are you going to introduce anything to plug the gap towards Cardiff in those hours?

 

[The Planner]

• Divert the Manchester-Bristol service to Cardiff via Gloucester to replace the Notts-Cardiff service, but keep the Paignton services, with all of them calling at Weston SM.

So Birmingham to Bristol is reduced to 1tph? That isnt going to work.

 

[VItraveller]

So Birmingham to Bristol is reduced to 1tph? That isnt going to work.

couldn’t an operator like transport for Wales or whatever takes its place run a fast Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff service

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agreed. The regional express services are a poor fit in XC - let it do its core job, it's bad enough at that without worrying about other stuff.

It kills multiple birds with one stone.

 

[Harpo]

This one I do agree with, with TfW then ordering a second batch of 197s to work the remaining Cardiff - Birmingham service, and to replace 153s, 230s and MK4s.

Definitely agree on TfW operating Cardiff to Birmingham. XC appears to see it as its lowest priority whereas it would be far more significant to TfW.

It might also usefully mop up the truncated Cardiff to West Wales services to make a useful through West Wales to Brum service, possibly alternating with the Manchesters?

 

[The Planner]

couldn’t an operator like transport for Wales or whatever takes its place run a fast Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff service

Starts messing up New St if multiple routes start getting split. Birmignham to Bristol is of higher value than Cardiff so it should stay as it is.