Crossing London with the Maltese Cross ( + )

[1333jw]

One for the ticket gurus please!

On the National Rail website, there used to be a page on "Crossing London". This used to include a list of London Underground stations that you could change at using a ticket marked with the maltese cross ( + ). There was also detailed information on breaking your journey (you are allowed to leave at a mid-point tube station between the two terminus stations but you can't then rejoin with the same ticket).

Sine the NR website switched to this new, wierd Beta thingy, this list has disappeared. There is a page on "Traveling in London" ( https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/) on which there is a section on "Travelling across London with your train ticket", but the list of valid tube stations is no longer there.
Does anyone know if the list exists anywhere else please?

For info, the ticket is from West Hampstead Thameslink to Dagenham Dock and my intention is to use it on the Hammersmith & City line between King's Cross St. Pancras and West Ham. I'm 99.9% certain this is fine, but in the past I have always had the aforementioned list to hand in case it gets questioned at the barrier! P.S - I'm also aware this is not the quickest way of making the journey, it's just an example and it should be easier than it is to check validity of things like this!

Thanks very much in advance!

 

[AM9]

One for the ticket gurus please!

On the National Rail website, there used to be a page on "Crossing London". This used to include a list of London Underground stations that you could change at using a ticket marked with the maltese cross ( + ). There was also detailed information on breaking your journey (you are allowed to leave at a mid-point tube station between the two terminus stations but you can't then rejoin with the same ticket).

Sine the NR website switched to this new, wierd Beta thingy, this list has disappeared. There is a page on "Traveling in London" ( https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/) on which there is a section on "Travelling across London with your train ticket", but the list of valid tube stations is no longer there.
Does anyone know if the list exists anywhere else please?

For info, the ticket is from West Hampstead Thameslink to Dagenham Dock and my intention is to use it on the Hammersmith & City line between King's Cross St. Pancras and West Ham. I'm 99.9% certain this is fine, but in the past I have always had the aforementioned list to hand in case it gets questioned at the barrier! P.S - I'm also aware this is not the quickest way of making the journey, it's just an example and it should be easier than it is to check validity of things like this!

Thanks very much in advance!

Changing at Farringdon is a much better route, no 400m walk from platform A or B to the Met/Circle line station. Also, more importantly, no gatelines to pass through!

Edit: P.S. make sure that you don't exit the TL platform at the front of the train and pass through the national rail gateline. Travel in the rerar half of the traion and use the footbridge access directly to the LU Eastbound platform.

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know if the list exists anywhere else please?

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/break-of-journey-in-central-london.251962/#post-6326275

 

[1333jw]

Thanks for the replies posted already. Someone at work has also just answered my question with the following link:

Travel 'via' London | NRE Internal Knowledgebase

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

internal.nationalrail.co.uk

I'm assuming the fact it says it's internal means it's not intended to be accessed by the public. Seems crazy to me that at the same time as talking about closing ticket offices they are reducing the amount of information that's easily accessible online.

Changing at Farringdon is a much better route, no 400m walk from platform A or B to the Met/Circle line station. Also, more importantly, no gatelines to pass through!

Edit: P.S. make sure that you don't exit the TL platform at the front of the train and pass through the national rail gateline. Travel in the rerar half of the traion and use the footbridge access directly to the LU Eastbound platform.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not actually traveling from West Hampstead, I'm arriving on a Grand Central. I buy the ticket from either Finsbury Park or West Hampstead Thameslink to my destination so I can buy a Priv ticket that allows me to use the tube!

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for the replies posted already. Someone at work has also just answered my question with the following link:

Travel 'via' London | NRE Internal Knowledgebase

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

internal.nationalrail.co.uk

I'm assuming the fact it says it's internal means it's not intended to be accessed by the public. Seems crazy to me that at the same time as talking about closing ticket offices they are reducing the amount of information that's easily accessible online.


Thanks for the reply. I'm not actually traveling from West Hampstead, I'm arriving on a Grand Central. I buy the ticket from either Finsbury Park or West Hampstead Thameslink to my destination so I can buy a Priv ticket that allows me to use the tube!

I reported the lack of public information a couple of months back, referencing the above link. After a couple of rounds of emails with someone at National Rail who really didn’t understand the question at all I basically gave up and forgot about it.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm assuming the fact it says it's internal means it's not intended to be accessed by the public. Seems crazy to me that at the same time as talking about closing ticket offices they are reducing the amount of information that's easily accessible online.

Theoretically, the internal knowledgebase (iKB) was meant to go private again a week or two ago but seemingly it hasn't. It's probably a matter of time before it goes private again though.

I'd recommend making a copy of the list (and post it here?) just in case.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'd recommend making a copy of the list (and post it here?) just in case.

Here you go...

Travel 'via' London | NRE Internal Knowledgebase

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

internal.nationalrail.co.uk

Extract...

Travel 'via' London
Ticket prices shown in your TIS or the Fares Finder for journeys where permitted routes include travel via London and marked with the symbol †, include the cost of transfer across London on Thameslink services, or by London Underground, Elizabeth line or Docklands Light Railway between any two of the following Underground / Elizabeth line / DLR stations appropriate to the route of the through journey:

Abbey Wood

Aldgate

Amersham

Baker Street

Balham

Bank

Barking

Battersea Power Station

Blackfriars

Blackhorse Road

Brixton

Canada Water

Cannon Street

Charing Cross

Ealing Broadway (LU)

Edgware Road

Elephant & Castle

Embankment

Euston

Euston Square

Farringdon

Finsbury Park

Greenwich (DLR)

Highbury & Islington

Kensington Olympia

Kentish Town

Kings Cross/St Pancras

Lancaster Gate

Lewisham (DLR)

Limehouse

Liverpool Street

London Bridge

Marylebone

Moorgate

Old Street

Paddington

Queens Park

Richmond

Seven Sisters

Shadwell

Shepherds Bush

Southwark

Stratford

Stratford International (DLR)

Tottenham Hale

Tower Hill

Upminster

Vauxhall

Victoria

Walthamstow Central

Waterloo

West Brompton

West Ham

West Hampstead

Whitechapel

Wimbledon

Woolwich Arsenal

Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

For example a ticket from Colchester to Orpington is valid for a ‘cross-London’ journey either:

by LU services from Liverpool Street or Stratford to Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo or London Bridge,

or

by LU services from Stratford to Canada Water (for London Overground services to New Cross)

by DLR services from Stratford to Lewisham

All National Rail London termini stations, except Fenchurch Street, are linked by the Underground. The nearest Underground station for Fenchurch Street is Tower Hill (Circle & District Lines) and is clearly sign-posted from there.

Please Note: The London Underground does not run overnight, apart from a reduced service on Fridays and Saturdays, on a limited number of lines. During times when the London Underground is closed, customers are advised to use either taxis or the Night Bus network to continue their journey at their own cost (NB London Buses do not accept cash).

Is that some 58 stations listed?

 

[30907]

So essentially it's any station where you could interchange between NR and LUL/DLR/EL* - except apparently S/W Ruislip, which is odd.

*worms, can of, do not open under any circumstances

 

[redreni]

So has the concession where you can break a cross-London transfer at an intermediate station (but not resume it) been withdrawn?

What is officially supposed to happen if you are validly making a cross-London transfer from, say, Paddington to Euston and you try to exit at Tottenham Court Road (either with the intention of walking from there to Euston later, or of paying separately to go there by tube, bus or taxi)?

(I know what would actually happen - there would be a ridiculous stand-off where gateline staff would insist the ticket isn't valid to exit there, but I'm asking what the actual rules are?)

 

[Alex365Dash]

So has the concession where you can break a cross-London transfer at an intermediate station (but not resume it) been withdrawn?

Page 24, Section 6 (Ticket Recognition) of LU’s Ticketing & Revenue Book 8 (available through FOI) still details this concession as follows:

Although tickets are not available at intermediate stations, customers holding an NR ticket with Cross London availability are permitted to break their journey at;

• any LU station in Zone 1
• any LU station on a reasonable route between interchange points
• any station on a NR route where a break of journey would be permitted under NR rules

Providing the ticket has not already been used to exit at another LU station.

The customer must be advised that if they subsequently wish to continue the journey on LU, they will need to pay an additional fare

 

[lyndhurst25]

I had no problem being let out at Oxford Circus yesterday using a Maltese cross ticket. “Can you let me out please? I’m walking to Euston from here”.

 

[redreni]

Page 24, Section 6 (Ticket Recognition) of LU’s Ticketing & Revenue Book 8 (available through FOI) still details this concession as follows:

That's really helpful, thanks Alex!

I had no problem being let out at Oxford Circus yesterday using a Maltese cross ticket. “Can you let me out please? I’m walking to Euston from here”.

That's good to hear.

I travel the length of the EL core section regularly at weekends as part of a through journey, but I usually have a day travelcard so can (and do) break my journey in zone 1 for various reasons. If there were no day travelcards then I would travel on a maltese cross ticket instead.

This guidance is helpful to have as it shows there is simply no room for argument when it comes to exiting.

Re-entering and resuming is, as noted above, a can of worms, but it's interesting that if, when I exit, I am given the warning about having to pay again if I resume, as per this guidance, it refers specifically to continuing my journey by LU. It doesn't mention the EL

An inadvertent omission perhaps, but whoever wrote this guidance has expressly referred to the EL just a few lines further up, so in my view it's reasonable to expect that if they meant the warning about not being able to resume on the same ticket to apply to the EL, they would have said so.

 

[renegademaster]

It's really annoying these tickets don't cover busses

 

[AlbertBeale]

That's really helpful, thanks Alex!

That's good to hear.

I travel the length of the EL core section regularly at weekends as part of a through journey, but I usually have a day travelcard so can (and do) break my journey in zone 1 for various reasons. If there were no day travelcards then I would travel on a maltese cross ticket instead.

This guidance is helpful to have as it shows there is simply no room for argument when it comes to exiting.

Re-entering and resuming is, as noted above, a can of worms, but it's interesting that if, when I exit, I am given the warning about having to pay again if I resume, as per this guidance, it refers specifically to continuing my journey by LU. It doesn't mention the EL

An inadvertent omission perhaps, but whoever wrote this guidance has expressly referred to the EL just a few lines further up, so in my view it's reasonable to expect that if they meant the warning about not being able to resume on the same ticket to apply to the EL, they would have said so.

If it's a through journey with a cross-London element where the EL is an allowed routing - eg from west of London to east of London - then I'm not sure that a Maltese Cross is needed anyway, since the EL is part of the NR system. And if the ticket type is one which allows break of journey, well, no problem (in theory); however it's been reported here that ticket gate staff in central London (being LT not NR) are clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via the EL.

But if you have a Maltese cross because, say, you're on a north-south journey which takes you across London, and choose to abandon use of the cross-London element part way, and your place of abandonment happens to be an EL station (as well as a tube station), then re-starting your cross-London leg there, just because it's also an EL station, seems unlikely to work, if the EL isn't a reasonable route between the two London terminal stations your'e linking between.

 

[alistairlees]

If it's a through journey with a cross-London element where the EL is an allowed routing - eg from west of London to east of London - then I'm not sure that a Maltese Cross is needed anyway, since the EL is part of the NR system. And if the ticket type is one which allows break of journey, well, no problem (in theory); however it's been reported here that ticket gate staff in central London (being LT not NR) are clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via the EL.

But if you have a Maltese cross because, say, you're on a north-south journey which takes you across London, and choose to abandon use of the cross-London element part way, and your place of abandonment happens to be an EL station (as well as a tube station), then re-starting your cross-London leg there, just because it's also an EL station, seems unlikely to work, if the EL isn't a reasonable route between the two London terminal stations your'e linking between.

For ticketing purposes TfL has decreed that the Elizabeth line is to be treated as an underground line in the core, and therefore a Maltese Cross ticket is required to use it, and the same rules about exit (but not re-entry) apply.

 

[Surreytraveller]

For ticketing purposes TfL has decreed that the Elizabeth line is to be treated as an underground line in the core, and therefore a Maltese Cross ticket is required to use it, and the same rules about exit (but not re-entry) apply.

I wouldn't agree with that. Whilst there is a lot of confusion, National Rail Conditions of Travel apply, so you can break your journey on through tickets.
Its only tickets wholly within the core (Abbey Wood to Paddington), or to or from a station within the core where that is the origin or destination, where TfL fare scales apply (Zone U1/U2 etc)

 

[alistairlees]

I wouldn't agree with that. Whilst there is a lot of confusion, National Rail Conditions of Travel apply, so you can break your journey on through tickets.
Its only tickets wholly within the core (Abbey Wood to Paddington), or to or from a station within the core where that is the origin or destination, where TfL fare scales apply (Zone U1/U2 etc)

According to TfL, you can't and the NRCoT don't apply. I'm not saying that I agree; just that that's how it is.

 

[Surreytraveller]

According to TfL, you can't and the NRCoT don't apply. I'm not saying that I agree; just that that's how it is.

Where does it say the NRCoT don't apply?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Where does it say the NRCoT don't apply?

It doesn’t, but TfL have decided to contradict the NRCoT in their own Conditions of Carriage and for all practical purposes, they will simply ignore this part of the NRCoT.

 

[Watershed]

Where does it say the NRCoT don't apply?

I think it's fair to say that it's TfL's policy to ignore and act in breach of the NRCoT.

 

[island]

For ticketing purposes TfL has decreed that the Elizabeth line is to be treated as an underground line in the core, and therefore a Maltese Cross ticket is required to use it, and the same rules about exit (but not re-entry) apply.

I wouldn't agree with that. Whilst there is a lot of confusion, National Rail Conditions of Travel apply, so you can break your journey on through tickets.
Its only tickets wholly within the core (Abbey Wood to Paddington), or to or from a station within the core where that is the origin or destination, where TfL fare scales apply (Zone U1/U2 etc)

It makes no difference whether you "agree" with it or not. TfL has decided that that is how it is going to work and staff have been briefed accordingly. You can wave the NRCoT around until you're blue in the face but it won't make any difference.

I think it's fair to say that it's TfL's policy to ignore and act in breach of the NRCoT.

Agreed. They have previous form for this, such as at places like Stratford in the past.

 

[yorkie]

If it's a through journey with a cross-London element where the EL is an allowed routing - eg from west of London to east of London - then I'm not sure that a Maltese Cross is needed anyway, since the EL is part of the NR system

Contractually and legally you are absolutely correct.

However retailers and their suppliers are prevented from offering this (possibly illegally; it would make an interesting case if anyone pursued it!), due to Rail Delivery Group issuing instructions to this effect

. And if the ticket type is one which allows break of journey, well, no problem (in theory); however it's been reported here that ticket gate staff in central London (being LT not NR) are clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via the EL.

But if you have a Maltese cross because, say, you're on a north-south journey which takes you across London, and choose to abandon use of the cross-London element part way, and your place of abandonment happens to be an EL station (as well as a tube station), then re-starting your cross-London leg there, just because it's also an EL station, seems unlikely to work, if the EL isn't a reasonable route between the two London terminal stations your'e linking between.

Agreed

 

[nitten_travell]

I had no problem being let out at Oxford Circus yesterday using a Maltese cross ticket. “Can you let me out please? I’m walking to Euston from here”.

I tried it earlier this year at Westminster (from Kings Cross, heading towards Waterloo, lovely weather and I fancied a walk over, and perhaps a pint by, the river, and got sent back from the underground gateline! "Can't break your journey, you need to exit at Waterloo". Held an open single too. Hey ho.

 

[Gaelan]

If it's a through journey with a cross-London element where the EL is an allowed routing - eg from west of London to east of London - then I'm not sure that a Maltese Cross is needed anyway, since the EL is part of the NR system. And if the ticket type is one which allows break of journey, well, no problem (in theory); however it's been reported here that ticket gate staff in central London (being LT not NR) are clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via the EL.

How frequently is the EL a permitted route, anyway? Are there mapped routes that show it, or is it only permitted by the shortest distance rule (or on a maltese cross ticket)?

 

[miklcct]

If it's a through journey with a cross-London element where the EL is an allowed routing - eg from west of London to east of London - then I'm not sure that a Maltese Cross is needed anyway, since the EL is part of the NR system. And if the ticket type is one which allows break of journey, well, no problem (in theory); however it's been reported here that ticket gate staff in central London (being LT not NR) are clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via the EL.

But if you have a Maltese cross because, say, you're on a north-south journey which takes you across London, and choose to abandon use of the cross-London element part way, and your place of abandonment happens to be an EL station (as well as a tube station), then re-starting your cross-London leg there, just because it's also an EL station, seems unlikely to work, if the EL isn't a reasonable route between the two London terminal stations your'e linking between.

I frequently had problems with the Underground gate line and staff at Kentish Town as well as they were clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via Thameslink, some even said to me that I shouldn't be outside there.

When I lived at Cricklewood, I liked to break my journey at Kentish Town in order to buy food from the Lidl close to the station with a cross London ticket from the south.

Luckily the problem has been suspended for a year now.

 

[Sonic1234]

I frequently had problems with the Underground gate line and staff at Kentish Town as well as they were clueless about break of journey on an NR ticket via Thameslink, some even said to me that I shouldn't be outside there.

I've had problems with break of journey there. The response from TfL Customer Services was even more hopeless. It's the TfL attitude of "National Rail, nothing to do with us"

 

[alistairlees]

I have just noticed that:

Section 16.4 of the NRCoT states:

16.4 Tickets valid for travel across London using Transport for London services do not entitle you to break your journey on London Underground and/or the Docklands Light Railway, unless your Ticket is a Season Ticket or a travelcard covering the Zones in which you are travelling.

But the nationalrail.co.uk website states:

You are allowed to break your transfer journey once and leave the Underground, Elizabeth line or DLR at any intermediate station. For example, if you are travelling on the Underground between Victoria and Euston, you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another ticket or use pay as you go to travel to Euston.

It is not clear (I am aware that the interpretation most favourable to the customer should prevail).

 

[MrJeeves]

I have just noticed that:

Section 16.4 of the NRCoT states:


But the nationalrail.co.uk website states:


It is not clear (I am aware that the interpretation most favourable to the customer should prevail).

I would assume this is because the NRCoT refers to break of journey as a way to pause travel and then continue it, while the website clarifies you can stop short but cannot resume a transfer after this (somewhat erroneously referring to BoJ).

 

[island]

I have just noticed that:

Section 16.4 of the NRCoT states:


But the nationalrail.co.uk website states:

This is quite clear; it simply states that you can break your journey and leave an underground (etc.) station but you cannot rejoin the “TfL System” on the same ticket unless it is a season ticket.

It is not clear (I am aware that the interpretation most favourable to the customer should prevail).

Even if it were not clear, this oft-quoted maxim applies where “a term in a consumer contract could have different meanings” – it has no applicability here, as what you have quoted is not a term in a consumer contract; it is multiple terms, only one of which is in a contract.

 

[Watershed]

Even if it were not clear, this oft-quoted maxim applies where “a term in a consumer contract could have different meanings” – it has no applicability here, as what you have quoted is not a term in a consumer contract; it is multiple terms, only one of which is in a contract.

Information provided on the NRE site could very well form part of the contract. The fact that the statements are in different places doesn't mean that they can't constitute part of the same term overall - they both speak to issues relating to break of journey.