Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[kevin_roche]

A date for your diary. The next meeting of the London Assembly Transport Committee is on 25th April. Since Crossrail have promised to say when they believe the Elizabeth line will open in April this may be the day they do it. Or do others here believe they will wait until 30th April?

 

[kevin_roche]

Is anyone else here planning to go to this IET Talk about Crossrail Tomorrow?

https://events.theiet.org/integrating-crossrailelizabeth-line-into-the-national-rail-network/

Peter will explain how the new railway is being integrated into the existing network to create the Elizabeth Line.

Having worked on both the Network Rail and now the central (tunnelled) section of the Crossrail Programme, Peter will explain how the new railway is being integrated into the existing network to create the Elizabeth Line.

 

[plcd1]

A date for your diary. The next meeting of the London Assembly Transport Committee is on 25th April. Since Crossrail have promised to say when they believe the Elizabeth line will open in April this may be the day they do it. Or do others here believe they will wait until 30th April?

I'm sceptical that it would be timed to coincide. That Committee session has the Commissioner in attendance and while Crossrail will almost certainly be on the agenda I can't see Mike Brown doing an "exclusive" just for the Committee. I suspect the Commissioner will be "hauled over the coals" over his alleged involvement in "editing" progress reports from Crossrail before they were sent on to stakeholders. This emerged at the last session and Assembly Members were unimpressed to put it mildly.

I would expect any announcement to be handled separately and by Crossrail themselves and not TfL. The more relevant thing to check for is timing of Crossrail Board meetings - any decision to go public on a date or "range of dates" will require Board approval. No board minutes have been published for 2019 but looking at the timing of past April board meetings they have all been in the last week of April. Assuming the schedule has continued then you might get an announcement just before or just after the Transport Cttee meeting.

 

[kevin_roche]

I went to the IET Talk last week on Crossrail by Peter Gracey of Bechtel Ltd.

During the Q&A session after his talk Peter mentioned that as some stations on the Crossrail central section would be delayed in opening, the possibility was being considered of running a service which did not stop at every station.

He also confirmed that the signalling transitions on the western sections would now be CBTC to TPWS and from TPWS to ETCS for the Heathrow bound trains.

 

[reddragon]

Oh sh . . . !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

Even opening in 2020 looks unlikely. It's a real, real mess.

Here is this report

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...srail-progress-review-report-published-17-19/

 

[hwl]

Oh sh . . . !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

Even opening in 2020 looks unlikely. It's a real, real mess.

Here is this report

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...srail-progress-review-report-published-17-19/

No surprise in the detail apart from admitting to the bleeding obvious now! (they would look silly if they didn't!)

 

[jyte]

Now let's see what opens first...Crossrail or Berlin Brandenburg...

Though it now looks like the only solution to the Brandenburg mess is completely rebuilding the airport building...

 

[kevin_roche]

More News and Views about the report from the Public Accounts Committee...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-it-may-not-be-finished-by-2020-a4107891.html

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/pac-slams-government-and-crossrail-over-delays

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...th-line-heathrow-central-budget-a8851781.html

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh sh . . . !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47787367

Umm, from that article...

Crossrail, Europe's biggest infrastructure project, had been due to open in December 2018, but will not now open fully until 2020 at the earliest.

Isn't that comparing two different things? As I recall, the line was never due to open fully in December 2018 - only partially, with the line split at Paddington. That immediately makes me wonder how well researched that article is.

 

[Mikey C]

Umm, from that article...



Isn't that comparing two different things? As I recall, the line was never due to open fully in December 2018 - only partially, with the line split at Paddington. That immediately makes me wonder how well researched that article is.

I thought that as well. The big question is what will the delay be in opening the new tunnels and operating some services, as that is what was meant to happen last December?

 

[hwl]

I thought that as well. The big question is what will the delay be in opening the new tunnels and operating some services, as that is what was meant to happen last December?

Upto 15months reading the full PAC report (nothing new)

 

[moggie]

I listened to the PAC grilling of Crossrail / DfT key execs at the time of the session. While it was predictably 'pointed', particularly of DfT's failure to detect programme slippage far earlier than eventually declared the session itself achieved little other than to allow certain MP's to vent their personal and puerile indignation - (the member for Chesterfield). In particular the CR Chair had been in post a matter of six weeks so any finger wagging by the PAC was pointless grandstanding. The new CR CEO had a longer association with the project but not as CEO and while he attempted to logically explain the issues in detail and why it was taking time to re-base the whole CR Integrated Programme to enable a new range of opening dates to be identified (and therefore confidence on remaining spend) the emotionally unstable member of the PAC ignored the rational explanation as he continued his personal mission to establish blame - pathetic.

The simple truth is that just like the previous CR executive team, the PAC is indulging in a crystal ball gazing exercise and coming up with nonsense. Let's wait until the CR CEO has completed his detailed programme review / re-baseline which is promised this month and only then will everyone have something this BoD (and TfL / DfT) can be held to account. The PAC are as guilty as the rest of the critics. Wise only AFTER the event. It is highly likely the central section will not be complete in its entirety until 2020 but that doesn't mean some service startup through the central section is unachievable in 2019.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm betting the core will open in. March 2020 15 months after the original event.

This is based on tfls accessibility committee reporting core stations and Ealing Broadway going step free at this time.

 

[plcd1]

I listened to the PAC grilling of Crossrail / DfT key execs at the time of the session. While it was predictably 'pointed', particularly of DfT's failure to detect programme slippage far earlier than eventually declared the session itself achieved little other than to allow certain MP's to vent their personal and puerile indignation - (the member for Chesterfield). In particular the CR Chair had been in post a matter of six weeks so any finger wagging by the PAC was pointless grandstanding. The new CR CEO had a longer association with the project but not as CEO and while he attempted to logically explain the issues in detail and why it was taking time to re-base the whole CR Integrated Programme to enable a new range of opening dates to be identified (and therefore confidence on remaining spend) the emotionally unstable member of the PAC ignored the rational explanation as he continued his personal mission to establish blame - pathetic.

The simple truth is that just like the previous CR executive team, the PAC is indulging in a crystal ball gazing exercise and coming up with nonsense. Let's wait until the CR CEO has completed his detailed programme review / re-baseline which is promised this month and only then will everyone have something this BoD (and TfL / DfT) can be held to account. The PAC are as guilty as the rest of the critics. Wise only AFTER the event. It is highly likely the central section will not be complete in its entirety until 2020 but that doesn't mean some service startup through the central section is unachievable in 2019.

I haven't watched the session but I can all too readily picture it from your description. Politicians just seem wired to always go after someone to "hang" whenever anything goes wrong. Now OK in a decent number of cases *someone* is accountable and should take responsibility. However not listening to what is said or continuing a form of vendetta in the face of reality does no one any favours. Politicians only seem happy when they have "heads on spikes" as a result of their investigations.

I am not quite so forgiving of Mark Wild. He was a TfL non exec appointee to the Crossrail Board for a long period of time. Given his claimed knowledge, experience and expertise it is not at all evident from what has been revealed so far that he was sufficiently challenging of the Crossrail Board about the deficiencies that have emerged. I also think there is an element, and I may be being very unfair, of him painting a very gloomy picture now of where things are at. If things go even moderately well in getting stations finished and tested and trains in full testing mode then he has the ability to "pull a rabbit from the hat" about how well everyone has done.

My own sense of things is that nothing will open in 2019. I expect something like a "March to September 2020" window to emerge as the likely core opening date with Bond Street possibly not opening until November 2020. Where that leaves the integration of the Shenfield / Reading branches I know not. If a March opening was possible then you could theoretically pull in the Shenfield line in Dec 2020 and Reading May 2021 if there is need to be tied to national timetable dates. Obviously if the core opening is later in 2020 then these dates slip. It is worth adding that there is probably great unstated political pressure to achieve a March 2020 ceremonial opening because of the purdah period for the Mayoral Election in May 2020 kicking in around mid March. Mayor Khan will want his moment in front of the cameras and shaking Liz's hand even if the public are not allowed on trains for a few more weeks or there is just a limited form of preview service in operation. We have the precedent of the East London Line opening here - political opening and preview service first, full public through service to the south of New Cross without fanfare after purdah.

 

[mmh]

Whenever it opens there's little chance of the usual mayoral song and dance. As much he loves a selfie, there'll be little self congratulation. More a press release than launching a train with a bottle of champagne.

 

[whhistle]

I wonder what all the train drivers, finance staff, customer services staff will be doing?

 

[plcd1]

Whenever it opens there's little chance of the usual mayoral song and dance. As much he loves a selfie, there'll be little self congratulation. More a press release than launching a train with a bottle of champagne.

There will be a ceremonial opening - I think we can take that as read regardless of the past issues. You don't build something this big in railway terms and not mark the achievement.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wonder what all the train drivers, finance staff, customer services staff will be doing?

Finance staff for MTR still have responsibility for the Paddington and Liverpool Street branches. Customer service staff in the core are provided by London Underground. and no change to the western and Eastern branches. Train drivers at Paddington appear to be on step back and stepping forward duties. Probably as they have a surplus of them it creates a more reliable service pulling drivers off at the end of each round and keeps the route knowlege up.

I imagine it's probably quite easy to book holiday at the moment if you are a train operator.

 

[rockinon]

Some might say that the government themselves are part accountable for the Crossrail over run and over spend.
The public sector IR35 reforms of 2017 likely denied Crossrail access to the talent pool and expertise within the freelance market, making it difficult to fill roles with their chosen personnel.

 

[700007]

Finance staff for MTR still have responsibility for the Paddington and Liverpool Street branches. Customer service staff in the core are provided by London Underground. and no change to the western and Eastern branches. Train drivers at Paddington appear to be on step back and stepping forward duties. Probably as they have a surplus of them it creates a more reliable service pulling drivers off at the end of each round and keeps the route knowlege up.

I imagine it's probably quite easy to book holiday at the moment if you are a train operator.

Finance staff are looking after East and West sections. Drivers are currently in talent pools and those already trained are being used on spare duties on both sides. New customer experience staff wearing the purple uniforms do various work around the company both (customer experience) CE and non CE related. Most of the staff on CE related duties can be found supplementing existing staff at all stations on West and East Side.

 

[kevin_roche]

Some might say that the government themselves are part accountable for the Crossrail over run and over spend.
The public sector IR35 reforms of 2017 likely denied Crossrail access to the talent pool and expertise within the freelance market, making it difficult to fill roles with their chosen personnel.

I know from personal experience that the IR35 changes have very badly affected parts of the IT sector where some skills are in great demand. This seems to have been one of the big issues with the on train software and signalling system integration.

 

[Taunton]

I came through Custom House several times in the last week on the DLR, alongside the open air section. There seems to have been no work done there on the obviously unfinished station since well before the end of 2018. The plant by the line seems not to have moved for months. You really would have thought it would be All Hands To The Pump to try and catch up the delay as soon as possible, but the opposite seems to have happened, little or no work going on anywhere at all.

 

[mrmartin]

Yes, seems very little work going on at the moorgate entrance as well. Genuinely doesn't seem to have changed much in many, many months.

 

[rockinon]

I know from personal experience that the IR35 changes have very badly affected parts of the IT sector where some skills are in great demand. This seems to have been one of the big issues with the on train software and signalling system integration.

Correct, this has been the case, and continues to be the case across all engineering sectors. Additionally whilst there is a need for overseas personnel to help such massive undertakings this has caused an increasingly concentrated dependency on such personnel.
This trend is likely to continue within the UK's other infrastructure upgrades such as HS2 and Electrification upgrades.
The public sector IR35 reforms came at a time when the country least needed them, if indeed, they were needed at all. This is especially relevant to an industry that largely demands a flexible workforce. An industry that needs a flexible workforce probably more than any other.

 

[Taunton]

There has been no fundamental change in the law regarding IR35 etc, it has just been clarified, and enforcement tightened. This has happened before, more than once.

If employers are saying they cannot get the staff, what they normally mean is they cannot do so at the salary and terms offered. The people with the skills have not evaporated, but are generally doing something else, taking jobs in the Middle East, etc.

 

[matt_world2004]

There has been no fundamental change in the law regarding IR35 etc, it has just been clarified, and enforcement tightened. This has happened before, more than once.

If employers are saying they cannot get the staff, what they normally mean is they cannot do so at the salary and terms offered. The people with the skills have not evaporated, but are generally doing something else, taking jobs in the Middle East, etc.

Im working with a contractor who worked for crossrail at the moment. The compay that employed him often promised anti social hours payments for working over holiday periods weekends, etc and these payments never materialised.

 

[Tio Terry]

There has been no fundamental change in the law regarding IR35 etc, it has just been clarified, and enforcement tightened. This has happened before, more than once.

If employers are saying they cannot get the staff, what they normally mean is they cannot do so at the salary and terms offered. The people with the skills have not evaporated, but are generally doing something else, taking jobs in the Middle East, etc.

You're right to say there was no fundamental change, it was just a change in the way people were classified. After more than 20 years of being accepted as a Freelancer operating through a Limited Company via a recruitment agency the new rules said that I was actually an employee despite the fact that there was no minuted post that I was occupying and that the establishment was at full (normal) strength, so I was not sitting in a vacant job. I was just providing temporary capacity for additional work.

Anyway, I decided to retire rather than have all the hassle having completed more than 53 years of full time railway industry employment.

Big mistake on my part. I'm bored being retired, despite having the place in Spain all ready and waiting and being here in the nice weather, I miss the daily commute in to Waterloo. But, mostly, I miss the people I worked with, the camaraderie, the daily banter, the feeling that I was actually doing something worthwhile in keeping people safe whilst travelling on the railway. I've had plenty of offers from Middle and Far East but my heart is still with the UK and I may well return to continue my career there in the future, I'm not financially motivated, I have a good enough pension package, but persuading the wife may be a different thing!

 

[rockinon]

I don't believe that is a correct statement. The countries flexible workforce on which industries like the railway (and probably especially the railway) are now treated as direct employee's by HMRRC if working within the public sector, but do not receive the benefits of a direct employee from the supposed employer.
Therefore, most simply choose not to work within the public sector. This has undoubtedly had negative effect on projects such as Crossrail who struggle to source the personnel with the expertise they require to successfully execute the planned works to programme.
This is not a small problem and in my opinion it is evidently counter productive.

 

[rockinon]

You're right to say there was no fundamental change, it was just a change in the way people were classified. After more than 20 years of being accepted as a Freelancer operating through a Limited Company via a recruitment agency the new rules said that I was actually an employee despite the fact that there was no minuted post that I was occupying and that the establishment was at full (normal) strength, so I was not sitting in a vacant job. I was just providing temporary capacity for additional work.

Anyway, I decided to retire rather than have all the hassle having completed more than 53 years of full time railway industry employment.

Big mistake on my part. I'm bored being retired, despite having the place in Spain all ready and waiting and being here in the nice weather, I miss the daily commute in to Waterloo. But, mostly, I miss the people I worked with, the camaraderie, the daily banter, the feeling that I was actually doing something worthwhile in keeping people safe whilst travelling on the railway. I've had plenty of offers from Middle and Far East but my heart is still with the UK and I may well return to continue my career there in the future, I'm not financially motivated, I have a good enough pension package, but persuading the wife may be a different thing!

Sorry, but what you describe above IS indeed fundamental change and by your own words seems it played a strong role in your decision to retire.
This further supports my theory that companies like Crossrail and the public sector in general now struggle to attract the required expertise in the required flexible capacity.
Still, you are clearly missing working within the industry, so hopefully you will be back soon having all the banter with like minded colleagues. If you need someone to look after your gaff in Spain for a bit..... err never mind.

 

[kevin_roche]

There has been no fundamental change in the law regarding IR35 etc, it has just been clarified, and enforcement tightened. This has happened before, more than once.

If employers are saying they cannot get the staff, what they normally mean is they cannot do so at the salary and terms offered. The people with the skills have not evaporated, but are generally doing something else, taking jobs in the Middle East, etc.

Well in my case I am now working less than I used to and closer to home. I take holidays when I want and no longer work weekends. In the past I kept my skills up to date by paying for my own training courses on a regular basis and IR35 stopped me doing that. Now I have an easier life but contribute a lot less tax than I used to.