Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[Non Multi]

This creates a curious situation where some customers will be able to use their freedom pass in the peak and not in the off peak. Another curious situation it creates is that freedom pass users will be able to travel to Reading on a freedom Pass from London but not to the intermediate stations of Langley and Iver.

It's the route to Reading that Oyster will extend to (not operator-specific train services). I expect all GW relief line services will have Oyster validity (excluding the branch lines outside London).

 

[matt_world2004]

It's the route to Reading that Oyster will extend to (not operator-specific train services). I expect all GW relief line services will have Oyster validity (excluding the branch lines outside London).

Yes but freedom pass validity will only apply to TfL rail beyond west drayton and in the morning peak not valid on GwR at all.

 

[Non Multi]

Yes but freedom pass validity will only apply to TfL rail beyond west drayton and in the morning peak not valid on GwR at all.

Do you have a link to where this is stated? The 9.30 am validity restriction is a continuation of what happens currently Hayes & H-West Drayton and the Greenford branch.

 

[ijmad]

There will eventually be all day Crossrail services to all the stations. This is just a 'bug' in the rollout I guess.

 

[matt_world2004]

Do you have a link to where this is stated? The 9.30 am validity restriction is a continuation of what happens currently Hayes & H-West Drayton and the Greenford branch.

This is going on a few precedents,

1.) The validity of freedom passes on non TfL national rail services that parallel TfL national rail services outside zone 1-6 currently, LM/Southern to Watford junction, AGA Brentwood and Shenfield and Cheshunt. Where they are not valid at all.

2.) The fact that freedom passes are only valid between zones 1-6 currently after 9:30 on routes that parallel TfL national rail services including GWR between West Drayton and Paddington. (They are not valid on GWR between Hayes and Paddington before 9:30, But are valid on TfL Rail)

3.) The mayoral commitments that all concessionary passes are valid throughout Crossrail.

 

[cjp]

This is going on a few precedents,

1.) The validity of freedom passes on non TfL national rail services that parallel TfL national rail services outside zone 1-6 currently, LM/Southern to Watford junction, AGA Brentwood and Shenfield and Cheshunt. Where they are not valid at all.

2.) The fact that freedom passes are only valid between zones 1-6 currently after 9:30 on routes that parallel TfL national rail services including GWR between West Drayton and Paddington. (They are not valid on GWR between Hayes and Paddington before 9:30, But are valid on TfL Rail)

3.) The mayoral commitments that all concessionary passes are valid throughout Crossrail.

Notwithstanding point 3 I doubt that Freedom Passes which are funded by LONDON boroughs will ever be valid out to Reading ( I do appreciate that they can be used on London Overground to Watford Junction) but extension of the Oyster Zone does not mean extension of the Freedom Pass Zone eg Epson & Gatwick and especially Heathrow which TfL now operate to rather than Heathrow Connect and where Freedom Passes are not valid beyond Hayes and Harlington

 

[matt_world2004]

Notwithstanding point 3 I doubt that Freedom Passes which are funded by LONDON boroughs will ever be valid out to Reading ( I do appreciate that they can be used on London Overground to Watford Junction) but extension of the Oyster Zone does not mean extension of the Freedom Pass Zone eg Epson & Gatwick and especially Heathrow which TfL now operate to rather than Heathrow Connect and where Freedom Passes are not valid beyond Hayes and Harlington

They are valid to Chesham, Cheshunt, Shenfield, wfj. The precedent is there and freedom passes are valid on the Tfl rail to Heathrow.

 

[cjp]

They are valid to Chesham, Cheshunt, Shenfield, wfj. The precedent is there and freedom passes are valid on the Tfl rail to Heathrow.

When did that change then?
I got off today before Hayes & Harlington so I heard no announcement either way but I see looking at the map you are right about Heathrow. I will have a free trip one day soon <g.>

 

[swt_passenger]

When did that change then?
I got off today before Hayes & Harlington so I heard no announcement either way but I see looking at the map you are right about Heathrow. I will have a free trip one day soon <g.>

Started on the day Heathrow Connect and the Hayes shuttle changed to TfL Rail operation, was it May 2018?

 

[matt_world2004]

When did that change then?
I got off today before Hayes & Harlington so I heard no announcement either way but I see looking at the map you are right about Heathrow. I will have a free trip one day soon <g.>

The conditions of carriage for Tfl services are still worded poorly making reference to freedom passes not being valid on the Heathrow connect. As they haven't updated them properly but they are valid on Tfl Rail services between Heathrow and Hayes and Harlington. The London councils website shows this correctly.

 

[Goldfish62]

After watching that video of the tunnels I'm surprised at the lack of connections between the tunnels. I spotted two, one each direction on the whole line. Any flexibility on the line seems almost impossible.

Due to the high frequency metro service provided, single line working would be completely impractical, unlike with the Channel Tunnel where a handful of trains an hour allows this albeit still with delays

 

[Dstock7080]

Heathrow tunnel now being fitted with AWS/TPWS to allow 345s to run.

Although the core is bi-directional signalled, working in the ‘wrong’ direction can only be done in non-passenger mode, except in emergencies. So no single line working on planned engineering works etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Heathrow tunnel now being fitted with AWS/TPWS to allow 345s to run.

Is that plan C, or maybe plan D? I thought from previous discussions AWS/TPWS wasn’t ever happening?

 

[matt_world2004]

I've seen 345s go up to Heathrow Junction this week so something is being tested

 

[JN114]

Heathrow tunnel now being fitted with AWS/TPWS to allow 345s to run.

Already has AWS, always had it.

Source on the TPWS fitment as the plan has always been ETCS? GW-ATP to TPWS was originally discounted as an unacceptable downgrade in safety provision as TPWS isn’t as comprehensive a system as GW-ATP?

 

[plcd1]

Heathrow tunnel now being fitted with AWS/TPWS to allow 345s to run.

Although the core is bi-directional signalled, working in the ‘wrong’ direction can only be done in non-passenger mode, except in emergencies. So no single line working on planned engineering works etc.

Really? Crossrail people were up in front of the London Assembly Transport Cttee this week and that wasn't mentioned at all. There was a specific discussion about the signalling issues and Howard Smith emphasised that only ETCS would be in the Heathrow tunnel. He also said testing of ETCS was being done on Friday nights.

I thought AWS/TPWS would be deemed a step back, in safety terms, from the BR ATP in the tunnels which is why it was not proposed as a solution. Note I'm not saying you're wrong in your statement. I'm just really, really surprised if that is now being done as yet another interim stage in signalling.

 

[Dstock7080]

Source on the TPWS fitment as the plan has always been ETCS?

Answer to specific question by Service & infrastructure Manager on LURS visit to Romford Rail Operating Centre, yesterday.

 

[hwl]

TPWS would be a sensible fall back for degraded working if ETCS is still a bit unreliable at times. (Also what are at the probabilities of the 387 fully working on ETCS by December, this may be about more than just Crossrail)

The original studies (2012-16) only looked at signalling options on the GWML not the Heathrow branch so TPWS+ might not actually be a downgrade on the branch in many circumstances and locations (TPWS+ was only a downgrade vs ATP in a handful of specific locations on the GWML.)

 

[cjp]

Thales signalling took a hit / caused a hit in Hong Kong this week.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...ystem-blamed-hong-kong-mtr-collision-was-also

See post in the boards international forum.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Crossrail isn't using Thales CBTC.

 

[ijmad]

Automatic train control/operation systems don't need to be perfect. They just need to be better than human drivers.

 

[cjp]

Crossrail isn't using Thales CBTC.

Thanks - so just the Met then?

 

[ijmad]

Thanks - so just the Met then?

Thales SelTrac is used on the DLR, Jubilee and Northern Lines, and is the system being deployed for the SSR 4LM signalling upgrade (so Met/H&C/Circle/District, eventually).

Crossrail's core is installing a Siemens/Invensys CBTC system. Thameslink's core is a Siemens ETCS Level 2 system, which also provides ATO. I am not clear on the differences between these two systems, or why the Crossrail core seems not to be ETCS. Perhaps someone else can fill the gaps.

The highest profile installations of the Siemens system include Paris Metro L1 & L5, New York Subway's Canarsie Line (L train) or Guangzhou Metro L4 & L5.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thales SelTrac is used on the DLR, Jubilee and Northern Lines, and is the system being deployed for the SSR 4LM signalling upgrade (so Met/H&C/Circle/District, eventually).

Crossrail's core is installing a Siemens/Invensys CBTC system. Thameslink's core is a Siemens ETCS Level 2 system, which also provides ATO. I am not clear on the differences between these two systems, or why the Crossrail core seems not to be ETCS. Perhaps someone else can fill the gaps.

TfL allegedly decided not to use ETCS because at the time they were deciding they saw it as untried and its novelty as a major risk to their completion date.

But I’ve also seen suggestions they thought that using a normal mainline signalling system would threaten their operational independence...

 

[ijmad]

TfL allegedly decided not to use ETCS because at the time they were deciding they saw it as untried and its novelty as a major risk to their completion date.

But I’ve also seen suggestions they thought that using a normal mainline signalling system would threaten their operational independence...

I suppose it is true that Thameslink's deployment of ATO on ETCS Level 2 was claimed to be a "world first" and therefore perhaps it was legitimately considered risky.

I suppose it's also true that TfL would rather not have to deal with Hull trains asking to run a Class 800 through the core tunnels off peak on their way between Hull and Southend airport (entirely hypothetical... ).

 

[ijmad]

Another question - is the system on the Crossrail core described as "Siemens/Ivensys" the same DTG system that Ivensys inherited from Westinghouse and later sold to Siemens, which is the same or similar to the Westinghouse DTG system deployed on the Victoria Line?

 

[hwl]

Another question - is the system on the Crossrail core described as "Siemens/Ivensys" the same DTG system that Ivensys inherited from Westinghouse and later sold to Siemens, which is the same or similar to the Westinghouse DTG system deployed on the Victoria Line?

No - The Crossrail CBTC system is TrainguardMT - the MT stands for Matra Technology. The system was originally designed by Matra for Paris Metro Line 14 re-signalling and automation but Matra sold their rail signalling arm to Siemens before it was completed (and long before they bought Invensys).
Siemens bought Invensys after they had already bid for Crossrail with TrainguardMT.

TrainguardMT is also being installed elsewhere in HongKong (to the Thales Seltrac)

 

[infobleep]

I'm surprised, there has been no mention of the following Evening Standard news report:

Crossrail delays close vital staff footpath to factory adding extra 20 minutes to commutes

Going the extra mile for your job is always encouraged, but for hundreds of staff at the Tate & Lyle factory it has been an inconvenient necessity.

Delays to Crossrail works upgrading a railway bridge have forced many employees to walk an additional mile to work for more than a year.

A footbridge near the 140-year-old factory in Silvertown has been out of action for nearly 18 months despite promises it would be renovated in only six weeks. Now it will not reopen until at least September.

Without it, staff and visitors arriving at the 45-acre site on foot or by the Docklands Light Railway must take a 20-minute detour to the west of the bridge to reach the factory entrance. An alternative route to the east for 1.4 miles takes about 25 minutes.
.....
A Crossrail spokesman said: “The footbridge over the railway at Silvertown is an important local crossing, particularly for workers at the nearby Tate & Lyle factory.

“The footbridge is in a poor condition and will re-open in September once remedial works are completed. We apologise for any inconvenience caused by the closure of the footbridge.”

www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-delays-close-vital-staff-footpath-to-factory-adding-extra-20-minutes-to-commutes-a4094246.html%3famp

I wonder if the Crossrail spokes person said anything else? If I used the footbridge regularly, I'd want to know why the delay went from 6 weeks to 18 months. That's an additional 72 weeks.

I've seen something similar happen to a pedestrian footway. Not related to railways but it shows how estimates can be widely inaccurate.

 

[hwl]

I'm surprised, there has been no mention of the following Evening Standard news report:

www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/crossrail-delays-close-vital-staff-footpath-to-factory-adding-extra-20-minutes-to-commutes-a4094246.html%3famp

I wonder if the Crossrail spokes person said anything else? If I used the footbridge regularly, 8d want to know why the delay went from 6 weeks to 18 months. That's an additional 72 weeks.

Ice seen something similar happen to a pedestrian footway. Not related to railways but it shows how estimates can be widely inaccurate.

Looks like they forgot it was going need to be made OHLE safe.

It previously had very open aluminium extrusion handrails and vertical bars (widely spaced).

 

[infobleep]

Looks like they forgot it was going need to be made OHLE safe.

It previously had very open aluminium extrusion handrails and vertical bars (widely spaced).

Does that take an additional 76 weeks and counting to do or is it just that they don't have the expertise to do it avilable?

I don't know if the Evening Standard selectively reported the spokes persons statement but if not, I think TfL should have explained the reason for the delay.

There again if I was in their shoes, would I? Perhaps not.