Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[Taunton]

I think he was thinking of people coming from further afield (Southend , Colchester, Norwich) who will now change at Stratford instead of Liverpool Street

One thing that may happen, it's noticeable currently on C2C as well, is that while inbound longer distance morning passengers may change at Stratford onto the Elizabeth for distribution across London, when returning in the evening they may still do so at Liverpool Street, with the long walk, to be assured of getting a better seat at the start of the main journey home, rather than having to fit in to what remains when it stops at Stratford.

 

[ijmad]

Another thing through running will likely result in is fewer people changing from the Shenfield direction on to the Jubilee to get to Canary Wharf. Many of them will now surely stay on and change at Whitechapel. But as @Horizon22 identifies I'm sure it will also increase interchange from Greater Anglia. So you win some, you lose some. I am sure the planners have done their modelling.

 

[Horizon22]

Another thing through running will likely result in is fewer people changing from the Shenfield direction on to the Jubilee to get to Canary Wharf. Many of them will now surely stay on and change at Whitechapel. But as @Horizon22 identifies I'm sure it will also increase interchange from Greater Anglia. So you win some, you lose some. I am sure the planners have done their modelling.

Perhaps - Jubilee only takes 10 minutes or so from Stratford and at peak times is incredibly frequent so not sure the time saving will be worth it? Might be slightly easier though to just walk from Platform B > A

 

[ijmad]

Perhaps - Jubilee only takes 10 minutes or so from Stratford and at peak times is incredibly frequent so not sure the time saving will be worth it? Might be slightly easier though to just walk from Platform B > A

Yeah I was mainly thinking about the much easier interchange walk, and the larger air conditioned trains may well be attractive. Stratford's passages sure can get congested during the peaks. Which one is quicker may well depend exactly where your office building is in the Canary Wharf estate!

 

[Sleepy]

There is still something to be said for joining and leaving a longer distance service at its terminus.

Certainly joining a Norwich bound service isn't much fun at Stratford, everyone seems to try to board into coaches C D or E when G - M are usually much emptier from Liverpool St. Those boarding in coach C seem to take exception to turning right by universal toilet instead tramping past cafe bar and walking the length of 1st class coaches before coming back again. The other problem with Stratford GE platforms is lack of canopies when it rains, resulting in people waiting on subway stairs until their train pulls in. (For unfamiliar with the timetable currently on weekdays Norwich bound services don't call at Stratford between 1438 & 2038)

 

[cactustwirly]

q1. do people who are on thames valley route btwn Reading and Paddington approve what TFL did to their service. A lot of stations got refurbished etc. I think you will find that some GWR customers might decide to switch at reading and then just have one train all the way through, but that brings the question who gets on the Elizabeth Line faster, someone who stayed on the GWR train and changed at Paddington or someone who changed at Reading. Through running is great for those in Southeast London as they in some cases could go to Heathrow without having to change. I think that Piccadilly line users in Northfields/South Ealing might just go to Acton town, then go to Ealing Bdway and then get a trun through there. Wheather that is actually efficent idk. As for those on the Eastern section (Liverpool street to Shenfield) I see a lot of people probably changing at Stratford so that they don't have to do the long and ardous change at Liverpool Street.

Why on earth would people change onto the Elizabeth line at Reading? that's just ridiculous!
The Elizabeth line is 40 minutes slower and runs only once every half hour instead of every 10 minutes approx that the express trains run...

The change at Paddington for the Elizabeth line is faster than the existing Hammersmith and City and Bakerloo lines. As the entrance is next to Platform 1

 

[345 050]

Jubilee is the line that everyone loves to hate tho, it's always rammed from Stratford, and it's not exactly a pleasant change at Stratford from platform 5. 1 extra stop on EL to Whitechapel, and then 1 stop eastbound on Abbey Wood branch of EL looks very appealing to me. Especially if you're already on a westbound EL service - it's not like changing at Whitechapel would be an additional change - just a different change.

However, it is a bit of a shame that crossrail wasn't able to serve Canary Wharf before diverging, but let's leave that thought there...

 

[trainfan007]

Why on earth would people change onto the Elizabeth line at Reading? that's just ridiculous!
The Elizabeth line is 40 minutes slower and runs only once every half hour instead of every 10 minutes approx that the express trains run...

The change at Paddington for the Elizabeth line is faster than the existing Hammersmith and City and Bakerloo lines. As the entrance is next to Platform 1

But conveince does matter.......

 

[cactustwirly]

But conveince does matter.......

I don't see how it's more convenient?
The interchange at Paddington for the Elizabeth line is hardly difficult, it's right next to platforms 1-5 and basically right and down an escalator.

Especially when traveling West with luggage GWR wins on convenience, as you can find a seat at Paddington and have space for your luggage.
Rather than stand on what is basically a tube train until at least Hayes.

By the time the Crossrail train is on the edge of London, the GWR train is already at Reading....

 

[JonathanH]

Jubilee is the line that everyone loves to hate tho, it's always rammed from Stratford, and it's not exactly a pleasant change at Stratford from platform 5.

The rear carriage of Jubilee Line trains is often rammed certainly. Less likely to find the front carriage rammed (at the times I travel).

Going via Whitechapel does seem more convenient.

 

[Horizon22]

But conveince does matter.......

Convenience for what? You're looking at over 1 hour all the way to destination as opposed to a relatively simple change (off train, short walk and then down two sets of escalators) which takes maybe half the time.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe in the future when Old Oak Common opens, that will be like Stratford in terms of being the main station for interchange from fast GWR services from all points West to anybody wanting the Lizzy line.

 

[Jimini]

The rear carriage of Jubilee Line trains is often rammed certainly. Less likely to find the front carriage rammed (at the times I travel).

Going via Whitechapel does seem more convenient.

Always take the second (Jubilee Line) train out of Stratford and take a stroll along the platform. Two minutes sacrificed for an infinitely more pleasant journey. I've been doing it for years.

 

[bicbasher]

The interchange at Whitechapel will help me immensely. Currently I have two options to get to Stratford. Change at Canada Water for already rammed Jubilee line trains to Stratford on the Jubilee or go to Whitechapel, change for the H&C or District to Mile End and then cross platform for the Central line. I normally do the latter on the way back as I find it less crowded returning on London Overground from Whitechapel than Canada Water.

This will make it viable to always stay on the ELL to Whitechapel and use the Elizabeth line instead.

Like the poster above, I've also used the trick of getting on the second Jubilee line service at Stratford to at least grab a seat, but not a fan of the interchange at Canada Water, especially coming from the northbound ELL escalator to the Jubilee.

 

[lawried123]

The 7cars (and the software for them) were a temporary solution due to short platforms at Liverpool Street HL (now sorted) and Paddington HL (soon to be irrelevant) that was meant to have ended in most part 3 years 4months ago and the final handful of units 2 years 10months ago.
As temporary a solution the software has much more limited functionality that didn't need route specific testing on yet to be installed equipment - in contrast to the 9car software that followed (or rather is following) later.
It is also worth pointing out that the 2 extra cars added (4th from each end) each have one motor bogie for which the traction electronics are on the adjacent already in service vehicles (3rd from each end) with a reasonable degree of hard wiring rather than connectors.
The power to weight and regenerative braking capabilities of the 9car units are somewhat better than the 7car requiring a huge degree of extra complexity for ETCS and CBTC train software implementations.

You'll also want to do a decent number of test miles with the new cars which haven't been used of turned their wheels in while to avoid embarrassing failures in critical places.

The time scales for the new units are similar to existing.

Pl

One thing that may happen, it's noticeable currently on C2C as well, is that while inbound longer distance morning passengers may change at Stratford onto the Elizabeth for distribution across London, when returning in the evening they may still do so at Liverpool Street, with the long walk, to be assured of getting a better seat at the start of the main journey home, rather than having to fit in to what remains when it stops at Stratford.

One thing I'm interested to see is travelling home from Paddington in the evening peak where we now get a choice of Elizabeth line and GWR trains to stations further West and can make sure we get on the train early to guarantee a seat. I can't imagine many people wanting to go down to the Elizabeth line platforms and probably then having to stand on a crowded train when it comes in. They are probably more likely to get on a GWR train with a greater chance of getting a seat.
Anyone travelling to Heathrow not on the Heathrow express will all have to cry go down to the Elizabeth line platforms often with heavy luggage and hope they can get on the train when it comes in from the core section. I shall be keen to see how it all works out,

Lawrie

 

[Failed Unit]

Pl

One thing I'm interested to see is travelling home from Paddington in the evening peak where we now get a choice of Elizabeth line and GWR trains to stations further West and can make sure we get on the train early to guarantee a seat. I can't imagine many people wanting to go down to the Elizabeth line platforms and probably then having to stand on a crowded train when it comes in. They are probably more likely to get on a GWR train with a greater chance of getting a seat.
Anyone travelling to Heathrow not on the Heathrow express will all have to cry go down to the Elizabeth line platforms often with heavy luggage and hope they can get on the train when it comes in from the core section. I shall be keen to see how it all works out,

Lawrie

As a user with a similar dilemma. Change at Kings Cross or Finsbury Park to head north. I normally use King’s Cross for a seat. Typically only go to Finsbury park if I don’t think I will make the train north (Finsbury Park is a shorter walk and no ticket barriers)

If a seat is important I think people will go for the terminal.

I will do a trip report soon between Heathrow T5 and Welwyn Garden City. Maybe even have a race. I don’t think the EL will win time wise. But the single change could make a better journey. Going the other way I do have a concern about boarding the train.

 

[hwl]

I don't see how it's more convenient?
The interchange at Paddington for the Elizabeth line is hardly difficult, it's right next to platforms 1-5 and basically right and down an escalator.

Especially when traveling West with luggage GWR wins on convenience, as you can find a seat at Paddington and have space for your luggage.
Rather than stand on what is basically a tube train until at least Hayes.

By the time the Crossrail train is on the edge of London, the GWR train is already at Reading....

Crossrail will be a bit more competitive from next May, big difference with comparisons for next week and mid next year:

• 4tph to Reading including 2 semi-fast
• much lower Crossrail GWML journey times

 

[AM9]

As a user with a similar dilemma. Change at Kings Cross or Finsbury Park to head north. I normally use King’s Cross for a seat. Typically only go to Finsbury park if I don’t think I will make the train north (Finsbury Park is a shorter walk and no ticket barriers)

If a seat is important I think people will go for the terminal.

I will do a trip report soon between Heathrow T5 and Welwyn Garden City. Maybe even have a race. I don’t think the EL will win time wise. But the single change could make a better journey. Going the other way I do have a concern about boarding the train.

Heathrow T5 to WGC looks a similar journey to T5 to St Albans. One simple change at Farringdon, - lifts available for those with luggage. The reverse will be just as simple particularly getting on Lizzy trains as there will be considerable churn at all the core stations so seats will almost certainly become available within 2 or 3 stops. Depewnding on the state of the M25, I think that TL+XR journeys will be competitive with door to door taxis from many of the Hertfordshire towns.

 

[ijmad]

The interchange at Whitechapel will help me immensely. Currently I have two options to get to Stratford. Change at Canada Water for already rammed Jubilee line trains to Stratford on the Jubilee or go to Whitechapel, change for the H&C or District to Mile End and then cross platform for the Central line. I normally do the latter on the way back as I find it less crowded returning on London Overground from Whitechapel than Canada Water.

This will make it viable to always stay on the ELL to Whitechapel and use the Elizabeth line instead.

Like the poster above, I've also used the trick of getting on the second Jubilee line service at Stratford to at least grab a seat, but not a fan of the interchange at Canada Water, especially coming from the northbound ELL escalator to the Jubilee.

Interchange at Canada Water is dire, before the pandemic it was bordering on hazardous at times with entire train's worth of people trying to squeeze down a single escalator. I appreciate the site was constrained when it was originally built but they really missed an opportunity to future proof it by adding a couple of staircases to help with the peak. I too regularly did the Whitechapel -> Mile End -> Stratford route when I was working up there as an alternative - I think the Elizabeth Line through running will be a very useful even more time competitive route to the Jubilee.

 

[coppercapped]

Maybe in the future when Old Oak Common opens, that will be like Stratford in terms of being the main station for interchange from fast GWR services from all points West to anybody wanting the Lizzy line.

Why should that be? If I have understood other posts about the length of walk from the Liverpool Street main line platforms to the Elizabeth line changing at Stratford makes sense. But the interchange at Paddington is simple: walk to the barriers, turn right through the old booking hall and down the escalators.

I can see absolutely no advantage in changing from the GW Main Line services at Old Oak Common to the Elizabeth Line compared to changing at Paddington.

 

[pdeaves]

I can see absolutely no advantage in changing from the GW Main Line services at Old Oak Common to the Elizabeth Line compared to changing at Paddington.

In that direction, 'getting a seat sooner' is about the best advantage, but for the length of central area journey it will be marginal for most people.

 

[Failed Unit]

Heathrow T5 to WGC looks a similar journey to T5 to St Albans. One simple change at Farringdon, - lifts available for those with luggage. The reverse will be just as simple particularly getting on Lizzy trains as there will be considerable churn at all the core stations so seats will almost certainly become available within 2 or 3 stops. Depewnding on the state of the M25, I think that TL+XR journeys will be competitive with door to door taxis from many of the Hertfordshire towns.

You have hit the nail on the head, in my example the flight is 1010. Rail does mess up, but at that time of day the A414 and M25 are totally unpredictable.

Leave at 0702 and arrive at 0840 with 1 change at Farringdon by rail (Elizabeth) or 0652 and arrive at 0831 (HEX and Circle). Granted I may get a good run across London and get the previous Hex from the one the journey planner is suggesting but the cross rail journey with a single change seems a lot more pleasant.

It is possible to do Heathrow by car in 1 hour, but at that time of day all bets are off.

 

[Watershed]

Why should that be? If I have understood other posts about the length of walk from the Liverpool Street main line platforms to the Elizabeth line changing at Stratford makes sense. But the interchange at Paddington is simple: walk to the barriers, turn right through the old booking hall and down the escalators.

I can see absolutely no advantage in changing from the GW Main Line services at Old Oak Common to the Elizabeth Line compared to changing at Paddington.

It will still be a slightly shorter interchange at Old Oak Common - up and over a footbridge (or possibly down through an underpass) for perhaps 20m or so, rather than the 300m or so, plus long escalator ride, needed at Paddington HL <> LL.

 

[coppercapped]

In that direction, 'getting a seat sooner' is about the best advantage, but for the length of central area journey it will be marginal for most people.

Quite, I agree with you. But the argument I don't understand.

A Class 800 has either some 350 seats in five coach form or something over 600 in 9 coach form. The Elizabeth Line trains are not small tube trains, they are full size 9 coach long trains with a total capacity of some 1500 people, some 450 seated.

I would think that, apart from, possibly, the peaks, the chances of finding a seat are pretty good as the there will be more Elizabeth Line trains than Main Line ones.

 

[Taunton]

I suspect it will be another "assymetric" demand to and from Heathrow, where at Heathrow itself both services are from the same platform, and Crossrail right across London will take more than coming the other way, where people may have made a deliberate decision to go to Paddington for the Express.

Will you have to commit to an operator and a ticket/touch-in before getting to the platform at Heathrow and seeing which is coming first, or how long to the other? I suspect there will be many, particularly visitors, for whom, seeing both show going to Paddington, will just get in the first train regardless.

 

[AM9]

Why should that be? If I have understood other posts about the length of walk from the Liverpool Street main line platforms to the Elizabeth line changing at Stratford makes sense. But the interchange at Paddington is simple: walk to the barriers, turn right through the old booking hall and down the escalators.

I can see absolutely no advantage in changing from the GW Main Line services at Old Oak Common to the Elizabeth Line compared to changing at Paddington.

Well the test of Stratford interchange vs Liverpool St comes on Monday so not long before the likely picture at OOC can be appraised. Interchange between GWR and XR services at OOC should be far better than the labyrinth that is Stratford so even for a four platform shift, it would be quicker than the norm for changes at Paddington with the choice of 1) walking to the front of the train, through a gateline, across a concourse potentially cluttered up with holidaymakers with luggage, then out to another escalator/gateline/escalator to reach the Lizzy platforms, or 2) walking to the rear/centre of the train, up a flight of stairs to the footbridge, down the other side then along platform 1 and through to the escalator/gateline/escalator jaunt to reach the platforms. I suspect that OOC will be similar to Reading where changes are relatively easy using the new footbridge, probably with distributor escalators given the expected voume of interchanges.

 

[Taunton]

Interchange at Canada Water is dire, before the pandemic it was bordering on hazardous at times with entire train's worth of people trying to squeeze down a single escalator. I appreciate the site was constrained when it was originally built but they really missed an opportunity to future proof it by adding a couple of staircases to help with the peak. I too regularly did the Whitechapel -> Mile End -> Stratford route when I was working up there as an alternative - I think the Elizabeth Line through running will be a very useful even more time competitive route to the Jubilee.

Actually I find that the interchange at Canada Water is one of the best on the Jubilee Extension, in contrast to the labyrinth walking at other points like Waterloo or West Ham. Together with (now just half) the DLR interchange at Canning Town, it's done by simply one directly on top of the other, one escalator down, platform to platform, and you can be out of one train and in the other in less than 60 seconds. Overloaded Jubilee trains to Canary Wharf have already disappeared, and the Elizabeth will make a significant further reduction.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect it will be another "assymetric" demand to and from Heathrow, where at Heathrow itself both services are from the same platform, and Crossrail right across London will take more than coming the other way, where people may have made a deliberate decision to go to Paddington for the Express.

Will you have to commit to an operator and a ticket/touch-in before getting to the platform at Heathrow and seeing which is coming first, or how long to the other? I suspect there will be many, particularly visitors, for whom, seeing both show going to Paddington, will just get in the first train regardless.

The current timetable the Hex leaves first and the cross rail goes slightly later. On the Cross-rail service staff came down between Heathrow T5 and Heathrow Central telling people with Hex tickets to get off and change. The Cross Rail service is 3 mins behind the Hex. But if you miss the Hex the cross rail is quicker to Paddington (by a whole 3 mins).

I was using Cross Rail deliberately but the circumstance of that journey, the contactless entry onto Cross rail meant I could catch the train. Would have missed the HeX because I needed to download a ticket.

But the last point you raise will be a problem. Maybe Hex offer contactless and it just works out who you used when you arrive.

It will be interesting what the destination is at Heathrow once they are going through, I assume it will be "Abbey Wood via Central London". I suspect at the moment the fact that is just London Paddington doesn't help the tourists.

 

[dosxuk]

Interchange at Canada Water is dire, before the pandemic it was bordering on hazardous at times with entire train's worth of people trying to squeeze down a single escalator. I appreciate the site was constrained when it was originally built but they really missed an opportunity to future proof it by adding a couple of staircases to help with the peak. I too regularly did the Whitechapel -> Mile End -> Stratford route when I was working up there as an alternative - I think the Elizabeth Line through running will be a very useful even more time competitive route to the Jubilee.

Canada Water really struggles from being designed in the era of the old East London Line, which even in the peak could be described as a forgotten backwater of the LU empire, the line was closed for near enough 3 years during the 90s and didn't really cause that much disruption. I doubt the designers of Canada Water ever expected the station to become half as busy as it is now, but I equally doubt that there's any money around to make the interchange any better.

 

[matt_world2004]

Quite, I agree with you. But the argument I don't understand.

A Class 800 has either some 350 seats in five coach form or something over 600 in 9 coach form. The Elizabeth Line trains are not small tube trains, they are full size 9 coach long trains with a total capacity of some 1500 people, some 450 seated.

I would think that, apart from, possibly, the peaks, the chances of finding a seat are pretty good as the there will be more Elizabeth Line trains than Main Line ones.

Pre covid tfl were predicting 5 passengers per square metre in the morning peaks between Hayes and Paddington on services originating West of West Drayton. That is crush loaded. It has a lower passenger density in the core because of the more frequent services

Canada Water really struggles from being designed in the era of the old East London Line, which even in the peak could be described as a forgotten backwater of the LU empire, the line was closed for near enough 3 years during the 90s and didn't really cause that much disruption. I doubt the designers of Canada Water ever expected the station to become half as busy as it is now, but I equally doubt that there's any money around to make the interchange any better.

I've heard tfl are pumping for section 75 money from the developers of a housing estate in the Canada water area to improve Canada water tube and bus station.