Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[ijmad]

I was on a train on Sunday eastbound through the central section and at every station he slowed right down and then crawled up very slowly to line up with the doors. At two stations the train stopped too soon and had to pull further forward to line-up. I can only assume the train was being driven manually.

Is that even possible in passenger service?

 

[lawried123]

I must say I was quite impressed with how it all went particularly on Sunday.
The only comment I would make is that of course trains to stations like Twyford now leave from two different places at Paddington, the high-level and the Elizabeth line. On Sunday at the mainline station the next Twyford train was shown in 50 minutes time, but nothing to indicate to to passengers that there was likely to be a train sooner than that downstairs.
When I then enquired downstairs whether there were any time tables on display to show the times of the Reading trains (on a 30 minute headway) they said there weren't and you just had to wait till a Reading train appeared on the departure lists above the doors. So you could well be waiting for nearly half an hour when there was actually a train going from Paddington main line in that time
I know at Kings Cross they show trains from st. Pancras to destinations also served from King's Cross so that you know whether it's any better to nip across to st. Pancras. But there doesn't seem to be anything similar at Paddington.

 

[ChrisEL]

One question that I hope isn't too off-topic:

Now that through running has started, how many trains go from Stratford to Liverpool Street High Level (excluding the very early / very late Elizabeth line trains)? Because if, say, you're a commuter whose office is very close to Liverpool Street station, the Elizabeth line trains that until Sunday took you to the High Level platforms now take you to the Low Level platforms, which are a fair walk from the main station building. As much as through running is obviously a very good thing, that seems to be a group that has lost out slightly.

 

[Adoarable]

One question that I hope isn't too off-topic:

Now that through running has started, how many trains go from Stratford to Liverpool Street High Level (excluding the very early / very late Elizabeth line trains)? Because if, say, you're a commuter whose office is very close to Liverpool Street station, the Elizabeth line trains that until Sunday took you to the High Level platforms now take you to the Low Level platforms, which are a fair walk from the main station building. As much as through running is obviously a very good thing, that seems to a group that has lost out slightly.

Just had a quick look on RealTimeTrains for next Monday (on the assumption that it's indicative of the standard weekday timetable). Excluding the very early / very late trains, there are 2 trains per day scheduled to go to Liverpool Street High Level: leaving Stratford at 08:06 and and 08:36.

 

[JonathanH]

Just had a quick look on RealTimeTrains for next Monday (on the assumption that it's indicative of the standard weekday timetable). Excluding the very early / very late trains, there are 2 trains per day scheduled to go to Liverpool Street High Level: leaving Stratford at 08:06 and and 08:36.

Many more Greater Anglia connections at Stratford into the High Level platforms though.

 

[ijmad]

Many more Greater Anglia connections at Stratford into the High Level platforms though.

Or you can cross platform to the Central Line which might be a shorter walk for some people.

And there will be just a many doing the opposite switch now so it shouldn't be that bad in terms of peak crush loadings.

 

[ChrisEL]

Many more Greater Anglia connections at Stratford into the High Level platforms though.

True of course, but if you're at Stratford specifically then most of the Greater Anglia services seem to be listed as drop-off only there. So if you're a commuter from Goodmayes with an office right by Liverpool Street, for example, the only direct trains to Liverpool Street now take you to the Low Level platforms, and officially it looks like you can't change at Stratford to get on a train to the High Level platforms (apart from the two mentioned above by Adoarable).

Not sure why I'm nit-picking though, really, as that's a pretty small group of people being slightly inconvenienced.

 

[RailAleFan]

Related to the above, Elizabeth Line services from Paddington low level are completely dominating the departure board in websites and apps using the open data feeds, often making up 8 or even 9 out of the next 10 departures (several methods of the Darwin web services are limited to 10 results). Here's a screenshot of National Rail Enquiries from a short while ago;



Another screenshot captured during disruption in the core prior to through running;

 

[BahrainLad]

This evening was a bit of a mess. Got down to the El platform at Liverpool Street at around 1650 wanting to go to Maryland to see that the next eastbound train was terminating at Stratford (unusually I thought) and due in 5 minutes. The next three trains were Abbey Wood in 7 minutes, followed by Shenfield in 8 minutes, followed by Shenfield in 7 minutes. Shurely some mishtake.

The 'Stratford' service rolled in with "Shenfield" on the front, and on the side. The platform announcer continued to emphasise that this train was terminating at Stratford. So I got on anyway.

On board, all of the displays said "Shenfield via Stratford" along with the automated announcements. As we approached Whitechapel, the display said "Change for Abby Wood [sic]." I mean really?

We proceeded to Stratford. We stopped, lots of people got off but a good 1/3rd of the train remained on. Lots of people got on, and I could hear the platform announcer saying we were going to Shenfield. We left and headed for Maryland. When we arrived, there was no visual or audio announcement regarding selective door opening.

Didn't they test any of this stuff?

 

[samuelmorris]

My first experience of the timetabled stop at Pudding Mill Lane tonight. I'm not sure I understand why it's needed? I can see the 2 minute stop in the timetable but the 'pathing reasons - passing train' doesn't make much sense to me as there is no other service passing in front? The previous service to occupy platform 8 at Stratford is the one it has been following through the core, so why stop? If just to space the timetable out so they can run 3 minutes apart in the core but 5 minutes above ground, it seems a bit mad to stop on the incline so the train rolls back almost a full carriage length while the brakes release, and for the driver to have to make an announcement about a red signal every time this service runs. That, plus the fact they still haven't fixed the bug where if the driver tries to talk over an automated announcement, the audio bugs out and plays a screaming alarm sound doesn't help matters.

As for 'does anyone test these things', I think your answer is in the fact the screens onboard say 'Abby Wood' and not 'Abbey Wood'. In other words, no

 

[theking]

I noticed quite a few angry Liverpool Street commuters on twitter lamenting the fact they can no longer get a seat and have to travel further to the new platforms. You must wonder if some people have been living under a rock for the past 10 years

Can you blame them.

If your end destination is Liverpool Street then the new product is worse than what you had before.

The walk down to the platforms is miles further than it is if you get off at the mainline platforms, the frequency is lower and you have to fight through the barriers with the rest of the underground passengers.

The GEML used to run like Clockwork now they're delayed with the Abbey Woods.

Also why is it SO SLOW between Whitechapel and Stratford ridiculous.

 

[Watershed]

My first experience of the timetabled stop at Pudding Mill Lane tonight. I'm not sure I understand why it's needed? I can see the 2 minute stop in the timetable but the 'pathing reasons - passing train' doesn't make much sense to me as there is no other service passing in front? The previous service to occupy platform 8 at Stratford is the one it has been following through the core, so why stop? If just to space the timetable out so they can run 3 minutes apart in the core but 5 minutes above ground, it seems a bit mad to stop on the incline so the train rolls back almost a full carriage length while the brakes release, and for the driver to have to make an announcement about a red signal every time this service runs. That, plus the fact they still haven't fixed the bug where if the driver tries to talk over an automated announcement, the audio bugs out and plays a screaming alarm sound doesn't help matters.

As for 'does anyone test these things', I think your answer is in the fact the screens onboard say 'Abby Wood' and not 'Abbey Wood'. In other words, no

That's just RTT's rather unhelpful definition of what an "A" stop is. It's simply a stop inserted for pathing reasons; there can be many reasons for it and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with passing another train. It can just be to hold the train for the desired path.

As for why there are pathing stops on departure from the core, it's to regulate the service intervals.

 

[Horizon22]

Is that even possible in passenger service?

It can be driven manually, but it is more likely to lose time due to the need to match up bang on with the door indicator. It’s a very rare occurrence.

Can you blame them.

If your end destination is Liverpool Street then the new product is worse than what you had before.

The walk down to the platforms is miles further than it is if you get off at the mainline platforms, the frequency is lower and you have to fight through the barriers with the rest of the underground passengers.

The GEML used to run like Clockwork now they're delayed with the Abbey Woods.

Also why is it SO SLOW between Whitechapel and Stratford ridiculous.

Whilst I agree with some or what you say (definitely an added inconvenience if you are alighting at Liverpool Street & also now there’s an additional stop), others not so much.

The frequency hasn’t reduced. There’s no Abbey Woods on the GEML, so the only delays would be in the central section due to something happening there or awaiting a path into Whitechapel (normally only a minute or two).

The average time between Stratford & Whitechapel is 5 minutes - why is that slow? Compared to what? It’s not felt too slow to me. Also don’t forget that for many people Liverpool Street isn’t their destination and through service now provides them with a much improved product.

If they really want Liverpool Street high level in the peak, get off and catch a GA service.

 

[bicbasher]

315s on Gidea Park shorts are still running from Liverpool Street High Level this week.

 

[BahrainLad]

How many people actually have LST as their final destination? If you’re walking to where most of the City is, then using the Moorgate or Broadgate Circus exits is actually easier than fighting your way across the crowded Station concourse.
Admittedly getting to the Spitalfields side is harder but there are comparatively fewer offices there.

 

[ijmad]

315s on Gidea Park shorts are still running from Liverpool Street High Level this week.

They will be replaced by 345s later this month, but will still go from the High Level platforms.

If a 315 ever runs into a tunnel we might have some fun delays.

 

[Busaholic]

As for 'does anyone test these things', I think your answer is in the fact the screens onboard say 'Abby Wood' and not 'Abbey Wood'. In other words, no

Abby Wood? I wondered what happened to her after we left primary school together.

 

[samuelmorris]

How many people actually have LST as their final destination? If you’re walking to where most of the City is, then using the Moorgate or Broadgate Circus exits is actually easier than fighting your way across the crowded Station concourse.
Admittedly getting to the Spitalfields side is harder but there are comparatively fewer offices there.

I have been on numerous occasions and the current arrangement would add about 6-7 minutes to the journey time I used to have... if services ran to time. This of course predates through-running but as of a couple of weeks ago the service out to Brentwood seems to run on average 8-10 minutes late every journey in the evening, mostly only accruing the delay east of Romford. I'm not sure what they've done to get this so wrong, the temporary speed limit after Harold Wood isn't that low, 50 I think?
If this carries on then yes, even starting my journey from Farringdon, the Elizabeth line is slower than the tube & mainline connection of old.

 

[rd749249]

You can encounter a stop short in the platforms under certain conditions in ATO but the instruction thereafter is clear. With a MA you must proceed in Protected Manual in order to correctly line up the doors, or you risk overshooting or not stopping at all.

 

[Horizon22]

I have been on numerous occasions and the current arrangement would add about 6-7 minutes to the journey time I used to have... if services ran to time. This of course predates through-running but as of a couple of weeks ago the service out to Brentwood seems to run on average 8-10 minutes late every journey in the evening, mostly only accruing the delay east of Romford. I'm not sure what they've done to get this so wrong, the temporary speed limit after Harold Wood isn't that low, 50 I think?
If this carries on then yes, even starting my journey from Farringdon, the Elizabeth line is slower than the tube & mainline connection of old.

Its Autumn too, so they are losing time as that area is poor for adhesion issues. Leaf fall has been a lot later this year, due to such a warm October.

 

[Sunil_P]

Some Paddington pics from Sunday and today:

 

[345 050]

Decidedly not whelmed by the experience this morning, after a 4-minute stand just outside the portal at Paddington for no apparent reason.

As discussed, long wait times are expected until the May 23 timetable.

I noticed quite a few angry Liverpool Street commuters on twitter lamenting the fact they can no longer get a seat and have to travel further to the new platforms. You must wonder if some people have been living under a rock for the past 10 years

I also noticed this on Monday. The front coaches were full and standing. And people were being left behind at Liverpool Street. However, there was more space towards the back of the train. It's very unfortunate that the escalators dump passengers right at the front of the train, where there is NO room to board....

 

[samuelmorris]

Its Autumn too, so they are losing time as that area is poor for adhesion issues. Leaf fall has been a lot later this year, due to such a warm October.

That's fair, though unless it's from remarkably conservative driving, I've heard very little in the way of wheelslip/slide.

The long dwell times in the station make things a bit awkward. I rushed onto a service which had been in the platform for a while by the time I reached it, but actually had more than 30 seconds still before it departed and could have walked further down the train. Impossible to do so from inside due to the crowd levels so I stood in the almost crush-loaded rear carriage unnecessarily. Fortunately enough people seem to alight at Liverpool Street and Whitechapel for this not to be too big an issue. I just lament the reworking of the timetables a few months back to prevent using the fasts to Shenfield and turning around. That was still the quickest way to do the journey!

 

[Taunton]

It can be driven manually, but it is more likely to lose time due to the need to match up bang on with the door indicator. It’s a very rare occurrence.

This was not the experience when the JLE opened in 1999, with platform edge doors and manual driving; the drivers were spot on in coming to a stand right on the mark without wasting time. It was actually quite striking. In fact the overshoots experience (which could only be a foot or so) became apparent when auto driving was finally switched on, for some months until presumably something was tweaked.

I wonder what happens if a westbound train slightly overshoots at Paddington and the east end driver does not sign beyond the Westbourne Park reversing sidings, or Old Oak. It does seem poor that an undershoot can be crept forward a foot or two, but an overshoot can't be backed up the same amount.

 

[Horizon22]

This was not the experience when the JLE opened in 1999, with platform edge doors and manual driving; the drivers were spot on in coming to a stand right on the mark without wasting time. It was actually quite striking. In fact the overshoots experience (which could only be a foot or so) became apparent when auto driving was finally switched on, for some months until presumably something was tweaked.

I wonder what happens if a westbound train slightly overshoots at Paddington and the east end driver does not sign beyond the Westbourne Park reversing sidings, or Old Oak. It does seem poor that an undershoot can be crept forward a foot or two, but an overshoot can't be backed up the same amount.

I mean its rare that they'll need to be driven manually. ATO brings you to a stop exactly where you want it to. I'm sure a good driver could do it too, but there's little to no room for error so to err on the side of caution and maybe lose a couple of minutes.

Stopped short versus an overrun is a common issue across the entire network; much more likely to be allowed to drawn forward then set back as you can't just "reverse" without leaving the cab, changing ends, setting up the other cab etc. which is potentially not what you want a driver to do after an operational incident (whether they are at fault or not).

 

[Sunil_P]

Updated Line diagram in car 340408 (unit 345008?)

 

[345 050]

I must say I was quite impressed with how it all went particularly on Sunday.
The only comment I would make is that of course trains to stations like Twyford now leave from two different places at Paddington, the high-level and the Elizabeth line. On Sunday at the mainline station the next Twyford train was shown in 50 minutes time, but nothing to indicate to to passengers that there was likely to be a train sooner than that downstairs.
When I then enquired downstairs whether there were any time tables on display to show the times of the Reading trains (on a 30 minute headway) they said there weren't and you just had to wait till a Reading train appeared on the departure lists above the doors. So you could well be waiting for nearly half an hour when there was actually a train going from Paddington main line in that time
I know at Kings Cross they show trains from st. Pancras to destinations also served from King's Cross so that you know whether it's any better to nip across to st. Pancras. But there doesn't seem to be anything similar at Paddington.

Sunday services are a bit funny because there are quite a few from the high level platforms. There probably needs to be a bespoke solution because it's not consistent. Essentially a lot of Reading services run from the high level platforms until about 1000, whereas the Heathrow services switch to low level about 0800.

 

[Bald Rick]

almost everyone who can run is going to run down that pasageway because they don't know if it's their train or not.

Personally I think this is a non issue.

1) if you are going to a station in the core between Paddington and Whitechapel, it’s your train (assuming you use the correct platform!)

2) if you are going to any other station, then running is a low stakes high return gamble - for the price of a short run you either catch your train (big win), or find it’s not your train and either catch it to the next stop and change, or just wait at TCR for your train, losing nothing. On the current service, eastbound it’s an even chance of a win, westbound the odds vary depending where you are heading west of Paddington, but the prize of winning is also much bigger (Especially for passengers to Twyford, and Heathrow terminals 4 or 5.)

 

[pdeaves]

Personally I think this is a non issue.

1) if you are going to a station in the core between Paddington and Whitechapel, it’s your train (assuming you use the correct platform!)

2) if you are going to any other station, then running is a low stakes high return gamble - for the price of a short run you either catch your train (big win), or find it’s not your train and either catch it to the next stop and change, or just wait at TCR for your train, losing nothing. On the current service, eastbound it’s an even chance of a win, westbound the odds vary depending where you are heading west of Paddington, but the prize of winning is also much bigger (Especially for passengers to Twyford, and Heathrow terminals 4 or 5.)

I think the issue is more a general 'running around' thing, which has higher chance of safety issues (tripping, running into someone, etc.) rather than whether a gamble is 'worth' taking.

 

[Sunil_P]

Seen at Ilford: