Cumbrian bus discussion

[Tetchytyke]

Surely one benefit of the current system is that the money follows the passengers? Before, a council could subsidise a bus service carting fresh air around the county (and many did) whilst other buses are full and standing. Now an operator has a greater incentive to meet market need.

The issue is around where there is a social need but not a commercially viable need, and the level of ENCTS re-imbursement affects that.

ENCTS funding is not a separate pot of money. It used to be, with a grant coming from DfT as well as funding from DCLG through the Formula Grant. But now all the funding comes through the formula grant, which is being cut each year by the government.

ENCTS reimbursement is paid largely based on how many people would have (hypothetically) travelled, not how many people did travel. This is a problem for operators in tourist areas because the reimbursement rate doesn't reflect the additional capacity they have to provide (and pay for). A full-and-standing bus doesn't mean they're raking it in if the ENCTS calculation is based on an assumption it would only be half-full without ENCTS.

Because ENCTS is paid based on how many people would have hypothetically travelled, it means that a viable commercial service with ENCTS would also be viable without ENCTS. If 100 people use it with ENCTS but only 10 would pay for it, they get reimbursement for those 10 people. ENCTS wouldn't keep a service running if it wasn't otherwise commercially viable.

The reimbursement rate actually affects operators in reverse, where the low reimbursement rate means that a service that was commercially viable without ENCTS no longer is because of ENCTS.

The main issue is the funding, though. Councils have to provide ENCTS reimbursement. They don't have to provide support for commercially unviable bus services. Councils cannot run a deficit budget, it is a criminal offence. Therefore the money they are spending on ENCTS has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the transport budget.

As I said, Cumbria CC are paying money to allow OAPs to travel for free on buses that a) they could afford to pay for and b) would be commercially viable without ENCTS. This means there is no money left for them to support services that aren't commercially viable.

 

[BlueFox]

Penrith is now, to all intents and purposes, cut off from bus networks to the south and east as Kendal appears to be too far to warrant even a once daily service.

There is a daily service from Penrith to Kendal, the Stagecoach 506. It only runs on school days though.
It leaves Appleby at 0655, Penrith at 0730, Shap at 0755 and gets to Kendal college at 0856. The return service leaves Kendal at 1705.

A year ago when the closure of the A591 meant the 555 couldn't get to Keswick, Stagecoach ran a bus non stop from Kendal to Penrith, via the M6, to connect with the X4/X5 to Keswick. It ran hourly from 8AM to 5PM. On the one occasion I used it I was the only passenger.

 

[randyrippley]

Yes, through all the tourists in summer....

ENCTS doesn't make the operator any real profit, hence why it is possible for services to be relatively full of concessionary passengers and still end up cancelled.

But thats where you're wong - IT DOES.

 

[randyrippley]

hate to tell you this, but I discovered recently that one of my nieces-in-law was on the team which calculated the ENCTS payment rates. I can't go into the details here for fear of exposing her (and anyway my maths isn't good enough) but it appears the civil service over-rode their mathematicians and made a mistake on the compensation rates resulting in major overpayments..........
bus companies DO make make money out of ENCTS, they just don't like to admit it

 

[mbonwick]

It doesn't make any significant/real money.

The whole principle is "no better/worse" - i.e a breakeven situation. Even if some operators do make a slight profit from the ENCTS (presumably due to having slim overheads), it's never going to pay for new vehicles.

There's several million quids worth of investment tied up in the 555 E400MMCs, please don't try and tell me that all came from a minor ENCTS overpayment...

 

[robertclark125]

I agree with you Michael, the thing is, people think that the only costs you have on a service are the fuel and staffing costs, as well as the vehicle purchase costs. It's more than that. Insurance, depots or outstation parking, repairs, all comes out of the money the service generates.

Although I'm not an expert on bus insurance, if it's like cars or house insurance, where there can be wide differences depending on the postcode or location, then it may be that the insurance for an Optare Solo in one county could be vastly different from another.

So, if the service isn't generating enough money to pay even its own share of the insurance, then it's difficult for it to survive.

 

[Robertj21a]

But thats where you're wong - IT DOES.

No, he's actually quite correct, it's just that many don't understand all the figures involved. What may be more accurate is to say that SOME routes may get by with the ENCTS payments propping up the full-fare payers but MANY routes cannot cover their costs (let alone make a nominal profit) as the ENCTS payment calculation has been set too low. The proof the pudding is to see how many routes across England have been withdrawn (or frequencies cut back) in recent times.

 

[ARN556B]

hate to tell you this, but I discovered recently that one of my nieces-in-law was on the team which calculated the ENCTS payment rates. I can't go into the details here for fear of exposing her (and anyway my maths isn't good enough) but it appears the civil service over-rode their mathematicians and made a mistake on the compensation rates resulting in major overpayments..........
bus companies DO make make money out of ENCTS, they just don't like to admit it

As well as ignoring the National Audit Office, which monitors Govt spending, you have also ignored the audit processes legally required of all local authorities. The thought of every local authority auditor missing large ENCTS over payments to operators is ridiculous.

 

[AaronR]

What I don't understand is this:

If a bus is only on average a 1/4 full per journey of full fare passengers prior to the free passes, but after it is 3/4 full, surely it then becomes more profitable with the additional passengers, even at a reduced fare? The buses would still run anyway so having SOME reimbursement rather than none carrying fresh air is better?

 

[neilmc]

I agree with you Aaron. However I think some commentators assume that at least SOME of the passengers travelling for free, and where the local authority gives the operator only a fraction of the cash fare, would have paid to travel anyway if no ENCTS existed. I think this is debateable to say the least, the operator only suffers a loss if potential full fare-paying passengers are denied boarding because the bus is full of free riders.

But there is a valid point that some local authorities would prefer a service not to run at all and thus pay NO subsidy to any operator, and it seems it is getting like this in Cumbria. For the 563, which connected some sizeable settlements along the busy A66 to go from four times a day to no bus whatsoever is disgraceful; the buses seemed quite busy whenever I saw them in Penrith bus station, but if nobody can run them on a commercial basis and the council don't, can't or won't pay enough to the operators for the free pass travellers, then they're gone.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What I don't understand is this:

If a bus is only on average a 1/4 full per journey of full fare passengers prior to the free passes, but after it is 3/4 full, surely it then becomes more profitable with the additional passengers, even at a reduced fare? The buses would still run anyway so having SOME reimbursement rather than none carrying fresh air is better?

The reimbursement isn't paid based on how many passholders travel, it is based on how many would have paid to travel. The additional passengers generate no income to the bus operator at all.

Where the exact same bus would have run anyway, this doesn't matter, you're quite right. But if, for example, your reimbursement rate is set on 25 fare paying passengers but you have to carry 60 passholders, you have a problem. With 25 people you can use a Solo. With 60 you need a double decker. The Decker costs more to operate, but generates no additional revenue. You see this as a problem in tourist areas- both Arriva and Coastliner had to stop running single deckers to Whitby because they couldn't cope with the increased passenger loads, but they didn't get additional ENCTS revenue to pay for the more expensive buses.

Even in cities the impact of ENCTS has been notable. In 2004 Stagecoach Newcastle ran only one route with double deckers- the route to the student area- but now pretty much the whole city has double deckers to cope with the increased passenger load. There is a cost to all this. Stagecoach can deal with it in their most profitable city, but in plenty of other areas operators can't deal with it.
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But there is a valid point that some local authorities would prefer a service not to run at all and thus pay NO subsidy to any operator, and it seems it is getting like this in Cumbria

ENCTS money is not subsidy, it is compensation to the bus operator for revenue foregone. It is reimbursement for the fares of the passholders who would have paid a fare. Councils must give this compensation out to operators.

Subsidy is optional. The pot of money is finite. It isn't "not wanting" to subsidise services. It is that they can't: there is no money, it got spent on ENCTS compensation.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Replacement services for the Reays services to be withdrawn at the end of the month have been announced, as has a 'replacement' for the Kirkby Stephen to Penrith service withdrawn prior to Christmas. OK if you want to go shopping on Tuesday and it takes you three hours to do it!

60E: Skinburness - Silloth - Allonby - Maryport : NEW service provided by Ellenvale Coaches - also serves Dearham (see January 2017 68B timetable).

68B: Maryport - Dearham - Broughton Moor - Great Broughton - Cockermouth - Slatefell - Rose Lane : Service amended to additionally serve Dearham, Dovenby and Slatefell.

Both from 30 January.

573: Kirkby Stephen - Brough - Warcop - Appleby - Kirkby Thore - Penrith : Tuesday only service. Partial replacement for Service 563.

From 31 January.

Details on the Cumbria County Council website. http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-transport/public-transport-road-safety/transport/publictransport/busserv/timetables/busnews.asp

 

[backontrack]

Replacement services for the Reays services to be withdrawn at the end of the month have been announced, as has a 'replacement' for the Kirkby Stephen to Penrith service withdrawn prior to Christmas. OK if you want to go shopping on Tuesday and it takes you three hours to do it!

60E: Skinburness - Silloth - Allonby - Maryport : NEW service provided by Ellenvale Coaches - also serves Dearham (see January 2017 68B timetable).

68B: Maryport - Dearham - Broughton Moor - Great Broughton - Cockermouth - Slatefell - Rose Lane : Service amended to additionally serve Dearham, Dovenby and Slatefell.

Both from 30 January.

573: Kirkby Stephen - Brough - Warcop - Appleby - Kirkby Thore - Penrith : Tuesday only service. Partial replacement for Service 563.

From 31 January.

Details on the Cumbria County Council website. http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/roads-transport/public-transport-road-safety/transport/publictransport/busserv/timetables/busnews.asp

Fantastic news!

 

[robertclark125]

Can someone clarify, this ENCTS scheme, are operators legally required to participate in it, or not? The other question, I put this a few years ago to the now defunct Western Greyhound bus company, that one possible solution, is that pass holders pay a small sum of money, 50p was the example I gave. It's not too much, and would not solve the problems 100%, but may ease them slightly.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can someone clarify, this ENCTS scheme, are operators legally required to participate in it, or not? The other question, I put this a few years ago to the now defunct Western Greyhound bus company, that one possible solution, is that pass holders pay a small sum of money, 50p was the example I gave. It's not too much, and would not solve the problems 100%, but may ease them slightly.

Operators can elect not to accept ENCTS but then they forego BSOG. The loss of BSOG outweighs the benefit of charging fares generally.

That was the reason that the government stepped back from removing BSOG altogether as it removed leverage over operators.

They can't independently levy an additional charge for ENCTS passengers; I recall Arriva in Whitby were on the wrong end of a challenge - had a google and this explains it fairly comprehensively http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...s-being-asked-to-pay-for-free-bus-travel.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

Operators can elect not to accept ENCTS but then they forego BSOG. The loss of BSOG outweighs the benefit of charging fares generally.

Is that right? I thought it was mandatory on any registered local bus service that could not be justified as being for tourist or other specialist purposes (e.g. tour buses and open top tours), and registration is mandatory for journeys with stops a certain distance apart.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is that right? I thought it was mandatory on any registered local bus service that could not be justified as being for tourist or other specialist purposes (e.g. tour buses and open top tours), and registration is mandatory for journeys with stops a certain distance apart.

Neil - I didn't phrase that particularly well :roll:. If you wish to claim BSOG then you have to register as a local bus service (subject to the exemptions above) and if you register, then participation is mandatory to explain it better. That make sense?

Bus or Coach excursions, tours, and other bus services not available to the general public, or not registered as local bus services, are excluded from the scheme.

 

[Robertj21a]

Neil - I didn't phrase that particularly well :roll:. If you wish to claim BSOG then you have to register as a local bus service (subject to the exemptions above) and if you register, then participation is mandatory to explain it better. That make sense?

Bus or Coach excursions, tours, and other bus services not available to the general public, or not registered as local bus services, are excluded from the scheme.

Not sure how/why BSOG comes into it. Surely, if you want to run a public bus service charging fares then it has to be registered anyway (BSOG or not) - and any such service is required to accept ENCTS passes ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure how/why BSOG comes into it. Surely, if you want to run a public bus service charging fares then it has to be registered anyway (BSOG or not) - and any such service is required to accept ENCTS passes ?

Yes, that was my point. An operator running a local bus service can't choose not to register it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Yes, that was my point. An operator running a local bus service can't choose not to register it.

Yet an operator can register a service, reasonably expect ENCTS re-imbursement and a council can unilaterally declare something to be a 'leisure' service and therefore exempt from the ENCTS scheme. I refer to North Yorkshire County Council and services operating to the Dales from West Yorkshire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not sure how/why BSOG comes into it. Surely, if you want to run a public bus service charging fares then it has to be registered anyway (BSOG or not) - and any such service is required to accept ENCTS passes ?

Operate as an excursion or an express.

Remember the Coastliner example in North Yorkshire.

 

[Robertj21a]

Operate as an excursion or an express.

Remember the Coastliner example in North Yorkshire.

OK, but we're clearly talking about a truly minute number of possible cases where this could apply. Have there been any truly local (as against long distance or interurban) bus services run as an excursion or express so as to avoid registration ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

OK, but we're clearly talking about a truly minute number of possible cases where this could apply. Have there been any truly local (as against long distance or interurban) bus services run as an excursion or express so as to avoid registration ?

No but you wouldn't as you wouldn't get BSOG. Did you not wonder why BSOG wasn't cut entirely but only reduced by 50%?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

OK, but we're clearly talking about a truly minute number of possible cases where this could apply. Have there been any truly local (as against long distance or interurban) bus services run as an excursion or express so as to avoid registration ?

Surely the answer lies not in Excursion, Tour or Express but in finding a local service with enough cash paying passengers, thus you can kindly decline the massive 6.1p per generated wrinkly that ENCTS offers whilst also having to forego the 34p per litre BSOG. Equally if you can define your service as 'primarily for leisure passengers' you can use the North Yorkshire CC excuse in reverse and decline to accept ENCTS. You can then charge ENCTS pass holders whatever you like and, as there is no alternative, they can like it or lump it. Locally I suggest a service from Stoke Station to Alton Towers, which happens to call at all points in-between, would be a good candidate given the numbers of non ENCTS users - both visitors and a standing load at staff change-over times. Or use the Cumbria CC get-around and set up a membership based, non-registered service where you are able to book the same journey multiple times up to a month ahead. Again ENCTS holders have to pay whatever you ask them.

In passing I see that it is still possible to offer tokens instead of (or alongside) ENCTS. The residents of Crook, and recently disenfranchised areas east of Penrith need to start asking their councillors some serious questions.

Town services in St Ives, Cornwall seem to operate outside ENCTS.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Neil - I didn't phrase that particularly well :roll:. If you wish to claim BSOG then you have to register as a local bus service (subject to the exemptions above) and if you register, then participation is mandatory to explain it better.

Except where North Yorkshire County Council choose to exclude a registered service from the ENCTS arrangements?

 

[Hardcastle]

A new bus service from Penrith to Appleby, Stagecoach will be introducing a new service off peak Mon-Fri of 3 journeys each way from Monday 4th September it dovetails with a school bus contract but they intend to run in school holidays as well.

 

[neilmc]

A new bus service from Penrith to Appleby, Stagecoach will be introducing a new service off peak Mon-Fri of 3 journeys each way from Monday 4th September it dovetails with a school bus contract but they intend to run in school holidays as well.

That's good news - once a week wasn't exactly a great service between two reasonable size towns (by Cumbrian standards) not many miles apart. The previous daily service run by an independent always seemed to attract a reasonable clientele when I saw it leaving Penrith mid-afternoon.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It also provides an alternative way of accessing the S and C without going into Carlisle but more importantly offers Appleby residents a way to use the WCML

Incertainly intend trying this out.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A new bus service from Penrith to Appleby, Stagecoach will be introducing a new service off peak Mon-Fri of 3 journeys each way from Monday 4th September it dovetails with a school bus contract but they intend to run in school holidays as well.

The timetable is available on the Cumbria County Council website.