Cummins QSK19 engine sounds

[ffcphone]

Am I right in thinking 180, 185, 220/1/2 are all fitted with the same Cummins QSK19 diesel engines which power the generators which produce the electrical energy which power the axles?

In which case, why is it they all sound quite different whether idling, revving up or in use?

Additionally, the 185 seems to rev the engines up to a fairly decent speed prior to the trains beginning to move off whereas with the Adelantes and Voyagers there's barely an increase in revs before the train starts to move off.

Forgive my mechanical engineering ignorance but I was just curious as to why this should be.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I haven't seen a 180 for ages so can't remember exactly, and I've never seen a 185 in action, but with the voyagers, on closing the doors, you do in fact here an increase in revs, the doors shut and the train has sort of built up power and shoots off - acceleration is fantastic on voyagers I must say!

 

[ffcphone]

Whilst waiting at Preston I get to see Voyagers depart everyday and yes there is an increase in revs but it is almost discernable before wheel movement occurs and then there is a more noticeable increase as the train begins to build up speed. Perhaps some sort of traction control/wheel slip regulator type of thing. 180s are similar as I see one depart Bolton most mornings.

But 185s must rev to 50-75% maximum whilst at rest before they begin to move out.

That, and the difference in engine sounds, was my real question.

Like you, I find the acceleration of Voyagers and 185s quite fantastic when they are permitted to really let rip.

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC Voyagers are now limited in how they put the power down. Their accelleration in the first few months was aircraft like.*

On difference in sounds could be down to the drivetrains. 185s and 180s are Hydraulic while 22x are electric.


*For ultimate accelleration there is a Youtube vid of a OBB Taurus doing 0-75 in about 15 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdy3G_an65s

 

[Pumbaa]

It's to do with the DEMU/DMU malarky, and this topic has come up a few times. Simply put:

-220/221s rev up when the doors start to close to provide aux power, to the train. They stay at that level until the train has started moving about 3mph or so, and then they ramp up to full or wherever the driver has plonked the CPBC. This is because the engines generate electricity to power the train directly.
-185/180 being just DMU take power for the doors etc direct from onboard aux supplies, so they rev up when the driver moves the CPBC into action. The engines here just move the wheels themselves.

 

[driver9000]

180s and 185s have mechanical/hydraulic transmissions (DMMU) whereas 220s and 221s have electric traction motors (DEMU).

 

[kestrel]

It's to do with the DEMU/DMU malarky, and this topic has come up a few times. Simply put:

-220/221s rev up when the doors start to close to provide aux power, to the train. They stay at that level until the train has started moving about 3mph or so, and then they ramp up to full or wherever the driver has plonked the CTBC. This is because the engines generate electricity to power the train directly.
-185/180 being just DMU take power for the doors etc direct from onboard aux supplies, so they rev up when the driver moves the CTBC into action. The engines here just move the wheels themselves.

CTBC? surely you mean CPBC- combined power brake controller

And yep 185/180's are DMU's with Voith hydraulic transmissions (3speed, convertor-coupling-coupling) and a retarder (although most isolated now).

220/221/222 are all DEMU with the engine driving an alternator in turn powering 2 AC motors per car

 

[Pumbaa]

I have no idea why I wrote T instead of P...

 

[Lampshade]

I always wondered this, I love the sound of the 180 yet detest the sound of the Voyagers, when it's the same engine :???:

 

[Demps]

Also dont they have different mufflers?? Where is the Cummins QSK19 diesel engine manufactured?

 

[kestrel]

I always wondered this, I love the sound of the 180 yet detest the sound of the Voyagers, when it's the same engine :???:

all depends on the plumbing

different intake and exhaust systems will make the same type of engine sound very different.

As an aside the engines fitted on the Thames turbo's (165/166's and alot of the 158's used on regional railways) sound very different to the Rolls royce eagle engine (as fitted to Foden's/ERF's and Atkinson trucks) that the Perkins is based on, essentially an updated version of the RR in underfloor guise , again its the induction and exhaust kit fitted that make it sound different

 

[Kneedown]

Additionally, the 185 seems to rev the engines up to a fairly decent speed prior to the trains beginning to move off whereas with the Adelantes and Voyagers there's barely an increase in revs before the train starts to move off.

Maybe TP drivers are a bit more psycho than the rest of us!

 

[ed1971]

all depends on the plumbing

different intake and exhaust systems will make the same type of engine sound very different.

As an aside the engines fitted on the Thames turbo's (165/166's and alot of the 158's used on regional railways) sound very different to the Rolls royce eagle engine (as fitted to Foden's/ERF's and Atkinson trucks) that the Perkins is based on, essentially an updated version of the RR in underfloor guise , again its the induction and exhaust kit fitted that make it sound different

I was once told by a mechanic that if you change the length of an exhaust slightly, a vehicle can sound completely difficult. Just look how completely different the Leyland Titan PD2/PD3 and Leyland Atlantean buses sounded, yet they had the same O.600/680 series of engines.

However I once rode on 142084 when it was experimentally fitter with Perkins 2006-TWH engines. I thought that it did sound similar to the SYPTE Roll Royce powered Dennis Dominators.

 

[ffcphone]

Thanks for all the responses. Some interesting info in there.

Intake and exhaust systems can clearly affect noise. A wander down any UK high street out of school hours will usually result in some sub-25 year old driving his modified car past you with incredibly loud exhaust etc.

However, I still maintain even at rest, stood next to the underslung engine on a 185, 180, 220/1/2 etc there is a noticeably different tone/frequency. If I was an anorak enough I'd record as much but I'm not!

But thanks for the info about the DEMU/DMU and drivetrains.

F

 

[Demps]

To be honest i dont think the difference is that substancial, considering a difference in engine ECU, exhaust, intake, and the fact that one has an alternator over straight DMU, mybe gearing is different also?

 

[Pumbaa]

However, I still maintain even at rest, stood next to the underslung engine on a 185, 180, 220/1/2 etc there is a noticeably different tone/frequency. If I was an anorak enough I'd record as much but I'm not!

Yes there is, ever so slightly at rest. The engines on 2xx are at ever so slightly higher revs. And as soon as the door button close is pushed, the engines rev up then. Explained above, it's all to do with the electrical transmission as opposed to hydraulic with aux power for all else.

HTH!

 

[TrainBrain185]

Also dont they have different mufflers?? Where is the Cummins QSK19 diesel engine manufactured?

Columbus-Indiana, USA. UK Plants are in Darlington where the ISBe5.9, ISCe8.3 Litre engines are produced. Daventry UK the larger engines are produced.

 

[Spartacus]

I have to admit, I think the noise of a 185 is the closest you'll ever get to proper thrash on a modern unit. I know compared to 180s and 22xs they're geared lower which gives them a boost on hills and acceleration.

Incidentally, for the first time on a unit I felt the old feeling of a wagging tail, common in the rear carriage of loco hauled stock, while sat in the rear unit of a 3+3 185 due to the driver shutting the engine down on the rear car.