Curtailing Bentham Line services at Carnforth

[Gathursty]

Is there any benefit in just shuttling the Bentham Line between (Leeds) - Skipton and Carnforth with a guaranteed connection for Lancaster and Barrow?

I'm just thinking of anything that can be done to free up paths on the WCML. I know the 4 or 5 trains a day don't add up to much but I also think Carnforth could be remodelled so the Bentham Line goes straight towards Silverdale rather than the tight bend to Carnforth with platforms moved to suit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any benefit in just shuttling the Bentham Line between (Leeds) - Skipton and Carnforth with a guaranteed connection for Lancaster and Barrow?

No. Lancaster is both a connectional hub (e.g. to London) and a destination. It absolutely needs to go there.

If 75mph units are getting in the way on the WCML they need to use something faster e.g. 2-car Class 195.

 

[yorksrob]

When waiting at Carnforth for the main line (usually for a Pendolino to whizz by) there usually seems to be a lot of space on that stretch of the WCML when I look at traksy.

I don't see that you would gain anything.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There previously was a direct line straight towards Silverdale from the Little North Western. Moving Carnforth station away from the town it serves seems a little harsh on the locals, unless a second station, serving Warton, is proposed.

 

[37424]

So anybody going from Leeds to Morecambe for the day would have to catch 3 trains not a good idea. Add that to recent thread that suggested these services should terminate at Skipton to reduce Diesel miles under the wires that would make 4 trains needed to get to Morecambe.

Even if your going to Barrow and beyond I have seen people change at Lancaster instead of Carnforth, last time I travelled on that route a couple opposite decided to go on to Lancaster and wait for a later train so they didn't have to change at Barrow when going up the Cumbrian coast.

 

[brad465]

Last year while staying in Penrith I travelled from their to Bentham to do the nearby Ingleton Waterfalls' trail, which involved changing at Lancaster. Can't say I'd have liked to make that journey if the Bentham train didn't turn round at Lancaster.

I do agree though if there is a feasible way to get rid of that 10mph bend at Carnforth it should be pursued.

 

[bluenoxid]

In terms of the benefits, there is potential to release paths and flexibility on the WCML and around Skipton. If you were going to cut the service, I would be looking at a high spec coach running Skipton-Morecambe omitting Carnforth as an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of the benefits, there is potential to release paths and flexibility on the WCML and around Skipton. If you were going to cut the service, I would be looking at a high spec coach running Skipton-Morecambe omitting Carnforth as an option.

Crikey, let's wheel Beeching out again.

It's a useful connection. I'd rather see it upgraded than canned. To be a useful connection, it needs to serve Lancaster and ideally Leeds too.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any benefit in just shuttling the Bentham Line between (Leeds) - Skipton and Carnforth with a guaranteed connection for Lancaster and Barrow?

I'm just thinking of anything that can be done to free up paths on the WCML. I know the 4 or 5 trains a day don't add up to much but I also think Carnforth could be remodelled so the Bentham Line goes straight towards Silverdale rather than the tight bend to Carnforth with platforms moved to suit.

The congestion on the WCML isn't due to trains following each other block on block, it's because faster passenger trains catch up with slower freights. That means that there are gaps for other trains to fit into, provided they only use the WCML for a short distance. These are exploited by the Leeds trains between Lancaster and Carnforth or Morecambe South Junction.

 

[MarkyT]

A possible candidate for battery/OHLE trains? Once at Lancaster, services could bounce back to Morecombe, a short (just over 2 miles) branch that might be wired to give higher proportion of wired diagram mileage/time for charging.

 

[Gathursty]

I've just spotted there could be space for a bay platform next to Warton Road.

 

[MarkyT]

I've just spotted there could be space for a bay platform next to Warton Road.

Looks like that was a short bay or parcels dock at one time. Long enough for a 2 car MU. I wouldn't advocate terminating the service there though. It should definitely run through to Lancaster.

 

[gordonthemoron]

If the service just ran Skipton-Lancaster, could the trains be more frequent?

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm just thinking of anything that can be done to free up paths on the WCML.

What paths are needed to be freed up?

 

[Gathursty]

What paths are needed to be freed up?

I don't know to be honest. I just assumed that there must be some constriction for Intercity trains because of the Morecambe branch but as we can't easily fix that, then maybe stopping the Bentham Line coming down could give a bit more freedom. I think the issue for changing trains is overblown but I don't mind train travel. It's worth another thread to discuss people's thoughts about changing trains more than once on particular journeys.

 

[Neptune]

It seems this is another case of wantonly inconveniencing people for the sake of the sexy Intercity services. Carnforth is a poor station for connections compared to Lancaster.

I often travel to this area for days out and stop off at the dog walkers cafe by Hest Bank level crossing and the line isn’t exactly full. There’s certainly plenty of space for the few Bentham line services that run. I would argue there is acutally a case for an hourly Leeds - Lancaster service. I work the Leeds - Preston route and the sheer amount of passengers travelling to Preston to go on to Lancaster or Windermere is phenomenal.

I would understand not running them through to Morecambe on the condition that there is a good connection at Lancaster using the bay platforms.

But Carnforth? No, just no sense at all in that.

 

[edwin_m]

One thing that might help is bi-directional signaling between Lancaster and Morecambe South Junction. If there was a long enough gap in Down WCML services, a train from Morecambe could get to the west side bays at Lancaster without touching the Up WCML. However I doubt there would ever be a long enough gap to justify continuing bi-di all the way to Carnforth.

 

[30907]

If the service just ran Skipton-Lancaster, could the trains be more frequent?

I doubt it - it's 2-hourly in normal times now, and you would need to run a unit in the peak path into/out of Leeds anyway, so there's no resource saving.

 

[Halish Railway]

If the service just ran Skipton-Lancaster, could the trains be more frequent?

The main issue with a more frequent (let’s say hourly service) is that Settle Jn to Carnforth is one block section, meaning that there is little space for West Coast Railways ECS movements. If I were in charge of running the service then I would split the block section at lets say, Bentham and then run an hourly Leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster service that splits at Hellifield, with each leg being formed of a single 158. Obviously some work may be required at Hellifield. I work also renew the track along the Little North Western as a lot of it is said to be pre-war and isn’t continuously welded.

On another note, I would make Lancaster to Morecambe a half-hourly shuttle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On another note, I would make Lancaster to Morecambe a half-hourly shuttle.

Yeah, I'd separate that out and use dedicated stock. A battery 230 would work quite well, a 2-car unit with Tube layout could deal with crowds as you sometimes get while being comfortable enough at other times. Brand it "The Bay Metro" or something with a dedicated livery and have a kids' competition to name it - local buy-in is great on services like that.

 

[Neptune]

The main issue with a more frequent (let’s say hourly service) is that Settle Jn to Carnforth is one block section, meaning that there is little space for West Coast Railways ECS movements. If I were in charge of running the service then I would split the block section at lets say, Bentham and then run an hourly Leeds to Carlisle/Lancaster service that splits at Hellifield, with each leg being formed of a single 158. Obviously some work may be required at Hellifield. I work also renew the track along the Little North Western as a lot of it is said to be pre-war and isn’t continuously welded.

On another note, I would make Lancaster to Morecambe a half-hourly shuttle.

Certainly the line needs an intermediate block section and track relaying to allow an hourly service.

I wouldn’t endorse splitting at Hellifield and running a 2 car Carlisle portion. In the summer it would be standing room only. Carlisle‘s need to be a minimum 3 car and preferably 4 car at the height of the season. The paths are there for a half hourly semi fast between Leeds & Skipton which would compliment the half hourly stoppers.

 

[37424]

I don't see any reason to change the current service (full service not the current temporary service) the Leeds to Lancaster service with possibly a few services going onto Morecambe, both Leeds and Lancaster are the main interchange points for the respective areas and as a likely highly subsidised route we don't want to be putting more barriers up to discourage people from traveling on the route, obviously the full service was only recently increased to a more reasonable level which should serve most people who want to use the service reasonably well.

 

[30907]

Certainly the line needs an intermediate block section and track relaying to allow an hourly service.

I wouldn’t endorse splitting at Hellifield and running a 2 car Carlisle portion. In the summer it would be standing room only. ... The paths are there for a half hourly semi fast between Leeds & Skipton which would compliment the half hourly stoppers.

The paths may be there (off-peak at least), but an hourly service via Bentham would be gross overkill - if there is a train that needs more than 2 cars (which I doubt) beyond Skipton, diagram it for 4 and use Local Door at any short platforms (Clapham?). And if you can crew it, use said extra unit for a Leeds-Morecambe express between the peaks.
(Or a Leeds-Heysham, preferably stopping at Saltaire so I can get to the IoM

I agree about not splitting at Hellifield though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to Morecambe, it'd be handy if the Heysham services could be additional to the base service and connected to the Leeds services, partly because that might be useful for the ferry, but also partly because a single unit can do a half hourly Morecambe shuttle easily[1], so you might as well encourage use of that service by operating it half hourly from say 6am to 11pm - a simple, understandable Merseyrail style service which is great for increasing ridership. Using that unit to do Heysham too would require a couple of services to be dropped, and once you lose the perfect clockface you have to look at a timetable, and that makes it less convenient.

[1] Running time 10 minutes, 5 to change ends. If it ends up more than 3 or so minutes late, cancel a round trip and it's back on time. It really shouldn't, though, it's not a complex service.

 

[randyrippley]

Is there any benefit in just shuttling the Bentham Line between (Leeds) - Skipton and Carnforth with a guaranteed connection for Lancaster and Barrow?

I'm just thinking of anything that can be done to free up paths on the WCML. I know the 4 or 5 trains a day don't add up to much but I also think Carnforth could be remodelled so the Bentham Line goes straight towards Silverdale rather than the tight bend to Carnforth with platforms moved to suit.

the bridge which carries the direct line is in a state of near-collapse and would cost too much to replace

 

[randyrippley]

In terms of the benefits, there is potential to release paths and flexibility on the WCML and around Skipton. If you were going to cut the service, I would be looking at a high spec coach running Skipton-Morecambe omitting Carnforth as an option.

Pennine ran that route for years, while Ribble ran Lancaster-Skipton, both using coaches. Neither survived deregulation

 

[Llandudno]

With regard to Morecambe, it'd be handy if the Heysham services could be additional to the base service and connected to the Leeds services, partly because that might be useful for the ferry, but also partly because a single unit can do a half hourly Morecambe shuttle easily[1], so you might as well encourage use of that service by operating it half hourly from say 6am to 11pm - a simple, understandable Merseyrail style service which is great for increasing ridership. Using that unit to do Heysham too would require a couple of services to be dropped, and once you lose the perfect clockface you have to look at a timetable, and that makes it less convenient.

[1] Running time 10 minutes, 5 to change ends. If it ends up more than 3 or so minutes late, cancel a round trip and it's back on time. It really shouldn't, though, it's not a complex service.

Easy to remember clock face frequencies, it will never catch on!

You just know if they were to operate two trains per hour from Lancaster to Morecambe the trains would be advertised as 32 and 28 minutes apart!

 

[30907]

Easy to remember clock face frequencies, it will never catch on!

You just know if they were to operate two trains per hour from Lancaster to Morecambe the trains would be advertised as 32 and 28 minutes apart!

Of course not, they would timetable the whole WCML round it

Seriously, incorporating the 2-hourly Leeds service would work well, giving the branch shuttle a half-hour layover every 2 hours. At a glance, arrivals at Lancaster at xx12 and xx42 fit across Morecambe S Jn the standard hour.

 

[BrianW]

Tangential? Am I right in thinking most (all?) WCML trains pass through Carnforth non stop? eg Grange-over-sands to Oxenholme means change at Lancaster, with 20-40 mins wait there? If that's so, why?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tangential? Am I right in thinking most (all?) WCML trains pass through Carnforth non stop? eg Grange-over-sands to Oxenholme means change at Lancaster, with 20-40 mins wait there? If that's so, why?

Because the platforms on the fasts were removed in the 80s.