Curzon Street HS2 Railway Station

[WesternLancer]

Key question for me is how long it will take to get off a local train that arrives into new street, and walk from New st platform to Curzon Street platform. Interested to know if nay estimates for that anywhere?

 

[Bald Rick]

Key question for me is how long it will take to get off a local train that arrives into new street, and walk from New st platform to Curzon Street platform. Interested to know if nay estimates for that anywhere?

Haven’t seen any estimates, but it will be about 8-10 minutes. The actual walk will be about a third of a mile, roughly the same as from the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras to the Victoria line.

 

[WesternLancer]

Haven’t seen any estimates, but it will be about 8-10 minutes. The actual walk will be about a third of a mile, roughly the same as from the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras to the Victoria line.

Thanks - less than I feared!

 

[Wychwood93]

Yes, HS1! Although the North Downs Tunnel does have a big concrete wall down the middle of it principally for derailment protection but it does help the aerodynamics.

Never knew that!

 

[edwin_m]

The other big difference is that the lines at both London Bridge and Reading that pass adjacent to the terminal platforms also have the common sense of platforms to enable interchange capabilities!

And Curzon Street's main entrance will be right next to that of Moor Street, with New Street a short walk away that might be provided with moving walkways. The Curzon Street site wouldn't be big enough for better interchange with the New Street lines and even if it was it would drastically increase the costs.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Key question for me is how long it will take to get off a local train that arrives into new street, and walk from New st platform to Curzon Street platform. Interested to know if nay estimates for that anywhere?

Door to door would be something like this once the concourse at Curzon Street is built. It's unclear to me exactly how far the buffer stops on the platforms will be in the station but renders on their website seem to suggest that they come up right to the land on Freeman Street which is currently being used as a car park. You are probably looking less than five minutes additional walking time than the current transfer from Moor Street to New Street.

It also looks like Curzon Street (the street) will all but cease to exist once the work is complete.

 

[Meerkat]

Bummer if you start at the wrong end of a 400m train though.....

 

[HSTEd]

Bummer if you start at the wrong end of a 400m train though.....

Well even with 200m units you can get half way down the train if you walk forwards prior to arrival.

 

[Noddy]

Door to door would be something like this once the concourse at Curzon Street is built. It's unclear to me exactly how far the buffer stops on the platforms will be in the station but renders on their website seem to suggest that they come up right to the land on Freeman Street which is currently being used as a car park. You are probably looking less than five minutes additional walking time than the current transfer from Moor Street to New Street.

It also looks like Curzon Street (the street) will all but cease to exist once the work is complete.

Yes.

For those who find mobility difficult or impossible the Midland Metro will be extended to Curzon St and the route will allow a direct transfer to New Street (well Stephenson Street). The Design and Access Statement (DAS) in the planning docs show that the proposals are for the stop to be under the platforms, about half way along. Time wise you may be faster if you can walk briskly but HS2 and the local authorities have clearly thought about how to link the stations. Obviously the new Midland Metro extension is dependent on HS2 being built but is otherwise all but confirmed.

https://metroalliance.co.uk/projects/birmingham-eastside-extension/

 

[NotATrainspott]

It's also worth remembering that rail connections form only one small part of the onward connectivity at major city stations. Lots of people have bus, tram, taxi, cycle, walking or even driving as their interchange mode. With all the massive regeneration plans for Curzon Street and its surrounding area, there's a good chance many HS2 passengers will be closer than they would have been if HS2 had knocked down a big chunk of the city centre to build it in the same place as New Street.

These onward connections in cities are often concentrated around the current main station, so it makes sense to aim for there. That's why Manchester's station will be at Piccadilly and not the much cheaper land out at Salford. However, once you're close enough, the gain from getting that bit further isn't enough to outweigh the extra costs. The Leeds case of moving the station slightly was acceptable largely because the local property developers saw an opportunity and were quite happy to take down their current office buildings.

 

[MarkyT]

Also walk time is guaranteed, with no wait time and no risk of not being able to get on the first tram due to overcrowding.For the less encumbered able bodied, the walk will always be quicker I confidently predict, but the mechanised alternative is a welcome alternative. I advocate a much improved St Martins Queensway tunnel with road vehicles removed, cafes and retail provided and possibly travelators to create a high quality airport style transfer route.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I don't think you'll stop busses and taxis using that tunnel, it would create more problems than it solves. The pedestrian route through could use a lick of pain though.

 

[HSTEd]

Couldn't we add a chord in Winson Green where the line out of Snow Hill crosses a line that connects to the lines out of New Street.
That way we could divert some chosen services into Moor Street and drastically cut down on the connection times.

 

[The Planner]

Couldn't we add a chord in Winson Green where the line out of Snow Hill crosses a line that connects to the lines out of New Street.
That way we could divert some chosen services into Moor Street and drastically cut down on the connection times.

Where they going after Moor St? you certainly can't terminate them there from the Snow Hill side.

 

[HSTEd]

Where they going after Moor St? you certainly can't terminate them there from the Snow Hill side.

Well you could create a de-facto metro line in South Birmingham and turn them back at Dorridge.

Also not sure how many trains will need to terminate at Moor Street at all, so a reconstruction might be able to create more through platforms by sacrificing all the terminating ones.

 

[The Planner]

Well you could create a de-facto metro line in South Birmingham and turn them back at Dorridge.

Also not sure how many trains will need to terminate at Moor Street at all, so a reconstruction might be able to create more through platforms by sacrificing all the terminating ones.

You would need a second tunnel. The tunnel is on the platform end.

 

[HSTEd]

You would need a second tunnel. The tunnel is on the platform end.

There is some room south of the station, so you could just dismantle the statino and rebuild it a 50m further south.

 

[iainbhx]

I don't think you'll stop busses and taxis using that tunnel, it would create more problems than it solves. The pedestrian route through could use a lick of pain though.

If it's open, it's better to cut through the Bull Ring, the tunnel is unpleasant and a magnet to beggars, mind you so is Thousand Trades square and the entrance to New Street.

It needs much better lighting, better wayfaring and a very, very deep clean.

 

[edwin_m]

There is some room south of the station, so you could just dismantle the statino and rebuild it a 100m further south.

That conflicts with the plan to build new curves near Bordesley so new trains from Moor Street can run towards Kings Norton and Water Orton. While it's not the main reason for them, these will also provide some better connections to HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

That conflicts with the plan to build new curves near Bordesley so new trains from Moor Street can run towards Kings Norton and Water Orton. While it's not the main reason for them, these will also provide some better connections to HS2.

I make it a lot further than that to a railway where a curve might be built.
But if those curves are built then we can turn the through platforms at Moor Street into Birminghamlink and run through trains.

Diverting the XC services through Moor Street would be an interesting proposition.

 

[Bald Rick]

I make it a lot further than that to a railway where a curve might be built.
But if those curves are built then we can turn the through platforms at Moor Street into Birminghamlink and run through trains.

Diverting the XC services through Moor Street would be an interesting proposition.

Which ones? There’s a lot of them....

 

[HSTEd]

Which ones? There’s a lot of them....

Well the only ones that seem practical with only this single extra curve are the Manchester trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well the only ones that seem practical with only this single extra curve are the Manchester trains.

Bristol - Manchester is doable, but Bournemouth to Manchester would mean missing out Cov and Birmingham International, the latter of which would be a big deal.

But then, if the service was diverted, I’d expect that the number of people who would be inconvenienced from the longer connections back to New St would outweigh those who would get better connections to Moor St / Curzon St.

 

[Noddy]

There is some room south of the station, so you could just dismantle the statino and rebuild it a 50m further south.

Moor Street Station is a listed building so dismantling and moving it isn’t going to be popular or cheap. And moving further south makes it further to walk to the entrance to Curzon Street.

 

[The Ham]

Bristol - Manchester is doable, but Bournemouth to Manchester would mean missing out Cov and Birmingham International, the latter of which would be a big deal.

But then, if the service was diverted, I’d expect that the number of people who would be inconvenienced from the longer connections back to New St would outweigh those who would get better connections to Moor St / Curzon St.

Bournemouth (anywhere up to Reading) Manchester would be faster via Old Oak Common (and more frequent) as such if passengers were looking for a faster journey many would already not be in the XC services anyway. Therefore moving these services probably isn't worth doing.

 

[boxy321]

I don't think you'll stop busses and taxis using that tunnel, it would create more problems than it solves. The pedestrian route through could use a lick of pain though.

I walked through the tunnel on Friday as I do every day, and was greeting by a homeless man urinating in view of everybody thinking it funny. The smell under there is vile and we know what that is. It doesn't paint Brum in a good light if you arrive there on Chiltern Trains for a day out whatever. Something needs to done about traffic in front of Selfridges/Moor St as the pedestrian crossing can be a nightmare. People late for trains take risks waiting several minutes for the lights to change.

The Bullring is OK if it's cold, you have time, and can tolerate hoards of shoppers in stop-and-go mode. The tram journey to New Canal St won't be quick as there's plenty of tight bends and they only go at walking pace around them.

 

[Noddy]

The tram journey to New Canal St won't be quick as there's plenty of tight bends and they only go at walking pace around them.

St Chads to Grand Central takes about 5 minutes, is about the same distance and also involves a number of tight bends. I don’t see why the journey from New Canal St (the new stop under Curzon St HS2 station for those who don’t know the area) to Grand Central would be significantly longer? The Albert St stop, close to the western entrance/Moor St, will be even less.

BTW I’m not saying they shouldn’t clean up the pedestrian link. They absolutely should.

 

[trentvalley]

BTW I’m not saying they shouldn’t clean up the pedestrian link. They absolutely should.

The problem is who is they? Birmingham City Council? Bull Ring owners? Network Rail? Avanti?

Each will want the others to foot the bill of whatever the plan might be.

 

[Austriantrain]

I might be in the wrong thread- if so, please delete - and of course I lack insights into HS2. But: Are there specific reasons why there will be no connections between HS2 and classic lines at (near) Curzon Street (and indeed in Leeds; although I am aware that trains could run direct from York, but would miss Leeds)?

As far as I understand, there will be HS2-trains from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds. In Central Europe (eg Germany - and probably even in France) these trains would run Scotland - York - Leeds - HS2 - Birmingham - Bristol and onwards; Same coming from Manchester.

Instead, there will be specific HS2-services running rather short distances and - apparently - separate, slower Cross Country Services running over classic lines and over longer distances, thus denying long-distance-passengers the time-savings that HS2 offers.

Since this does not make any sense from where I come from, is there any logical reason for this, apart from the fact that obviously not all connecting lines are electrified (which could be changed, of course).

 

[Purple Orange]

I might be in the wrong thread- if so, please delete - and of course I lack insights into HS2. But: Are there specific reasons why there will be no connections between HS2 and classic lines at (near) Curzon Street (and indeed in Leeds)?

As far as I understand, there will be HS2-trains from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds. In Central Europe (eg Germany - and probably even in France) these trains would run Scotland - York - Leeds - HS2 - Birmingham - Bristol and onwards; Same coming from Manchester.

Instead, there will be specific HS2-services running rather short distances and - apparently - separate, slower Cross Country Services running over classic lines and over longer distances, thus denying long-distance-passengers the time-savings that HS2 offers.

Since this does not make any sense from where I come from, is there any logical reason for this, apart from the fact that obviously not all connecting lines are electrified (which could be changed, of course).

This is where the South West really loses put here. Without a chord to New St I think this will be a problem that will need to be rectified in the medium term after phase 2 is complete. As stated above, Reading onwards will be better via OOC but Cov, Oxford etc will need to become an indirect route to the north, which I don't think that is too much of a problem given passengers can change and remain within the same station. But Bristol will have some the hassle of going to anywhere south and east of London .