Curzon Street Signalling?

[Chrius56000]

Just a quickie one!

Will Curzon St and it's approaches have a short island of conventional signalling before the high speed ETCS begins, as at St. Pancras International, or will ETCS be installed right up to the buffer–stops?

Chris Williams

 

[The Planner]

Just a quickie one!

Will Curzon St and it's approaches have a short island of conventional signalling before the high speed ETCS begins, as at St. Pancras International, or will ETCS be installed right up to the buffer–stops?

Chris Williams

ETCS for the whole of HS2.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .With conventional signalling the driver gets a maximum single yellow approaching a terminal platform on the final home signal before the platform (or a subsidiary if the platform is partly occupied) and the driver is expected to observe the station entry speed limit and the final stopping point by his route knowledge – with ETCS does the driver get a final movement authority showing speed zero plus the final distance to the ultimate stop point?

Chris Williams

 

[Class 170101]

ETCS for the whole of HS2.

Has ETCS got cleverer since HS1 then as I didn't think it could cope with low speed areas and hence the convential signalling on the approach to St Pancras?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Has ETCS got cleverer since HS1 then as I didn't think it could cope with low speed areas and hence the convential signalling on the approach to St Pancras?

It’s now installed on the Northern City line, and if ever there was a line that needed a robust slow speed approach to a terminus it’s that one. So I think it’s safe to say that any deficiency in that regard has been addressed in the 17 years since HS1 opened.

 

[laseandre]

Has ETCS got cleverer since HS1 then as I didn't think it could cope with low speed areas and hence the convential signalling on the approach to St Pancras?

HS1 doesn't use ETCS...

 

[iphone76]

. . .With conventional signalling the driver gets a maximum single yellow approaching a terminal platform on the final home signal before the platform (or a subsidiary if the platform is partly occupied) and the driver is expected to observe the station entry speed limit and the final stopping point by his route knowledge – with ETCS does the driver get a final movement authority showing speed zero plus the final distance to the ultimate stop point?

Chris Williams

Yes. At Heathrow Terminal 4/5 on approach to the buffer stops we see a small triangle with a zero next to it on the event planner which indicates the end of authority / buffer stop.

About halfway down the platform, the speed 'limit' drops to 6mph. This is known as the release speed. This is the speed we have to be under to avoid a break intervention. We then draw up to the end of authority as per normal.

Release speeds also apply when coming upto red signals, etc. to ensure the train can draw up a stopping point, but at a speed low enough for the system to intervene should it be needed.

 

[MCR247]

Has ETCS got cleverer since HS1 then as I didn't think it could cope with low speed areas and hence the convential signalling on the approach to St Pancras?

I’d been under the impression it was due to the connection there to the conventional network

 

[godfreycomplex]

I’d been under the impression it was due to the connection there to the conventional network

Correct

The exact mode and setup of ETCS for HS2 has yet to be confirmed, but it will be at least level 2, which means continuous speed supervision at all times whilst approaching an end of authority (such as buffer stops or the equivalent of a “red signal”)

 

[Tim M]

ETCS is just another Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system, the first in the U.K. being on the Victoria Line. Functionality and the means of delivering information to the train has advanced significantly since the 1960’s, particularly with the ability to use radio to expand the volume of data. No mass transit system that I’m aware of transitions from in-cab to external lights on posts operation on the approach to buffer stops, to do so would not only be daft but also dangerous.

ETCS is a bit of a step change from using ATP on mass transit railways with uniform rolling stock to a main line application with a variety of train types and performance. ETCS fitted trains shouldn’t need to change from in-cab to external lights on posts operation except when transitioning at the fringes of legacy signalling installations.

Oh, and by the way the 1960’s Victoria Line system had it origins in cab signalling used on steam locos in the USA in the 1930’s.

 

[D7666]

Correct

No, incorrect - because this :

I’d been under the impression it was due to the connection there to the conventional network

subject refers to HS1 into St Pancras but text has been lost

HS1 is not ETCS (as was posted by a.n.other too).

HS1 is TVM430.

ETCS is just another Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system, the first in the U.K. being on the Victoria Line.

Pedantically, LT/LU (and anyone else's) tripcock + trainstops are an ATP system; no cab display but is an ATP; what is different is the term ATP came into common use much more recently than tripcock/trainstops were invented and not been retro applied.

Further, as the term UK was used, the London Post Office Railway was UTO and because of that intrinsically had to have an ATP; pre-dates Vic line (and the 1960s LT trials elsewhere) by a very long time. No cab signalling for sure (no cabs!!!) but ATP nonetheless.

 

[godfreycomplex]

No, incorrect - because this :

I was referring to why the area has signals rather than block markers, rather than the specific system involved.

 

[D7666]

I was referring to why the area has signals rather than block markers, rather than the specific system involved.

I see, ok, I get that now you explained what you meant.

But it is not obvious from the whole post trail, because not enough text has been quoted.

 

[MCR247]

I was referring to why the area has signals rather than block markers, rather than the specific system involved.

Yes I was doing the same but I re-reading through I can definitely see @D7666 ‘s point

 

[godfreycomplex]

Yes I was doing the same but I re-reading through I can definitely see @D7666 ‘s point

Fair enough

 

[Bald Rick]

and the first Terminus station in the world signalled with ETCS L2 was…?

 

[LBMPSB]

As mentioned HS1 is signalled using TVM430, a now outdated French in-cab signalling system with fixed block sections. Conventional Signalling was necessary in this last kilometre from the tunnel mouth to St Pancras station due to the National Rail interfaces, the need for routing information and because short block sections are required to meet the specified operational headway/journey time (which cannot be achieved within the low speed codes available to the TVM system due to the speed profile of the layout). However with ECTS this wouldn't be the case.

The Thameslink Core Route, London Bridge - Kentish Town/Belle Isle Junction, has ECTS Level 2 (in-cab signalling with fixed block sections). This has no issue with coming off conventional signalling to ECTS anywhere along the route. Although there is Conventional Signalling along the Thameslink Core Route, a train will only be using one of the systems. When in ECTS, the Driver ignores Conventional signals. There are also more block sections with ETCS than with Conventional Signals, so it is possible for a train in ETCS to move into an already occupied Conventional Signal Block Section, because of ETCS Block separation.

So yes Curzon Street will be signalled with ETCS. I suspect Level 2, but ideally there is an opportunity to try the first Level 3 which has moving block sections, but knowing the UK, we will be behind in modernisation. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they installed Semaphores as they seem very reluctant to get rid of this nineteenth century technology.

 

[The Planner]

So yes Curzon Street will be signalled with ETCS. I suspect Level 2, but ideally there is an opportunity to try the first Level 3 which has moving block sections, but knowing the UK, we will be behind in modernisation. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they installed Semaphores as they seem very reluctant to get rid of this nineteenth century technology.

Where else is using level 3 and why does HS2 need it?

 

[GardenRail]

Where will the line be signalled from? An existing Signalling Location, or a new one, and will it be Network Rail Signallers?

 

[43066]

and the first Terminus station in the world signalled with ETCS L2 was…?

My guess is Pwllheli.

 

[HSTEd]

Where else is using level 3 and why does HS2 need it?

There is a hybrid level 2/3 installation operational in India on the first phase of the Delhi-Meerut Regional Rapid Transit System.
As far as I know, no true level 3 installation is operational, although I'm not sure why you'd need one when Hybrid L2/L3 can already have block sections far shorter than the trains.

 

[The Planner]

Where will the line be signalled from? An existing Signalling Location, or a new one, and will it be Network Rail Signallers?

Washwood Heath HS2 control centre. Seperate network to NR, so probably not.

 

[zwk500]

There is a hybrid level 2/3 installation operational in India on the first phase of the Delhi-Meerut Regional Rapid Transit System.
As far as I know, no true level 3 installation is operational, although I'm not sure why you'd need one when Hybrid L2/L3 can already have block sections far shorter than the trains.

The advantage of true Level 3 would be the ability to dispense with trackside train detection equipment. More important for long-distance rural lines than metros though!

Washwood Heath HS2 control centre. Seperate network to NR, so probably not.

Out of interest, are HS1 signallers (And the Ashford control centre) separate from NR?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where will the line be signalled from? An existing Signalling Location, or a new one, and will it be Network Rail Signallers?

The control centre will be at Washwood Heath*, co-located with the HS2 rolling stock maintenance depot (on the site of the former Met-Cam train factory).
While it is an HS2 Ltd project, no details of HS2's operation have yet been made public.
The contracts for the railway systems (track, signalling, electrification etc) have not been let yet.
As a precedent Network Rail operates HS1 under contract to its owners, from Ashford.

* less than 2 miles from West Midlands SCC at Saltley

 

[HSTEd]

The advantage of true Level 3 would be the ability to dispense with trackside train detection equipment. More important for long-distance rural lines than metros though!

Level 2/3 Hybrid installations already allow a large portion of trackside equipment to be dispensed with.

Although it is usually used to add more sections virtually, it can also be used to keep the same number of sections with fewer train detection segments.

Conceptually you could run the entirety of the Far North Line with only one axle counter at the southern end. At the low infrastructure limit it just turns into Level 3 with fixed blocks.

 

[zwk500]

Level 2/3 Hybrid installations already allow a large portion of trackside equipment to be dispensed with.

Although it is usually used to add more sections virtually, it can also be used to keep the same number of sections with fewer train detection segments.

Conceptually you could run the entirety of the Far North Line with only one axle counter at the southern end.

...Which is why hybrid L2/3 installation proposals have been much more popular than any attempt at 'pure' level 3.

 

[bengley]

Yes. At Heathrow Terminal 4/5 on approach to the buffer stops we see a small triangle with a zero next to it on the event planner which indicates the end of authority / buffer stop.

About halfway down the platform, the speed 'limit' drops to 6mph. This is known as the release speed. This is the speed we have to be under to avoid a break intervention. We then draw up to the end of authority as per normal.

Release speeds also apply when coming upto red signals, etc. to ensure the train can draw up a stopping point, but at a speed low enough for the system to intervene should it be needed.

This sounds awful and a perfect example of why I don't like the idea of ETCS. I can currently do 10mph down a terminal platform without any issues but now it sounds like because the computer says so we will have to start slowing down to 6mph much earlier than under TPWS. Retrograde step there, equally not too keen on these braking curves and being told by the system that I'm going 'too fast'.

 

[MarkyT]

The advantage of true Level 3 would be the ability to dispense with trackside train detection equipment. More important for long-distance rural lines than metros though!

Probably not all train detection. When a L3 based but fixed block regional variant was installed on a very rural line in Sweden many years ago, they kept fixed train detection by axle counters through points as a secondary safeguard that junctions were clear before attempting to move them. Seltrac as implemented on TfL also has an overlay of axle counter sections, not just through junctions for similar reasons but long sections on plain line too which are checked clear by the interlocking before reversing flow direction - i.e all trains in one direction have cleared out before one's allowed in going the other way. The hybrid 2/3 system is good enough for most surface general purpose railways. Block marker spacing can be tailored according to demand requirements and the markers can be useful for authorising movements between them by verbal instruction when things go wrong. Where two trains (safely) in a block could be useful is in station platforms, where one train could start entering before the previous one has fully cleared the platform. This is done in L2 on Thameslink by having additional fixed markers along the platform. A special 'supervised permissive' mode for this applied selectively where required using train radio for authority could plausibly remove some of the equipment from the platform trackside areas, notoriously difficult and disruptive to access for maintenance. Elsewhere, fixed block is adequate on plain line and keeps communications and processing load to a minimum.

Out of interest, are HS1 signallers (And the Ashford control centre) separate from NR?

I don't know if it applies today but when I went there a few times many years ago, the HS1 workstations were in the same room. The signallers were in a different 'link' to the ones controlling NR infrastructure though, so couldn't cross cover for each other, even though (AFAIK) they were all NR employees. That makes some sense as rules and regs are rather different and the workstations were from a different supplier and had subtle variations in features. That's not to say the staff couldn't be cross-trained on each other's rules, areas and equipment but I believe they weren't at the time.

 

[D7666]

and the first Terminus station in the world signalled with ETCS L2 was…?

No idea.

But I'll take a shot with either Aberystwyth or Pwllheli depending on exact Cambrian implementation dates.

EDIT
I see someone else already answered.

 

[MarkyT]

I’d been under the impression it was due to the connection there to the conventional network

Correct

It's partly the NR interface but mainly speed in the St Pancras throat area. track circuit code-based TVM430 can't supervise continuous speed below 80kmh, so protection is handed over to the balise-based French KVB limited supervision system which requires trackside signals and can supervise lower speeds more finely.

https://railway-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/signalling-at-the-st-pancrasctrl-terminal.pdf

Abstract

The new St Pancras CTRL (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) station consists of nine platforms, six for international Eurostar trains and three for regional domestic services from Kent (there are four platforms for the Midland Main Line but there is no through running between the CTRL and Network Rail parts of the station). Trains approaching St Pancras leave the single bore London Tunnels approximately one kilometre from the platform ends. In this last kilometre there are connections to the nearby Network Rail main lines (Midland Main Line, North London Line (NLL) /West Coast Main Line & East Coast Main Line (ECML)) and three approaches into the station (UP, DOWN & RELIEF). All lines are fully bi-directional.

On leaving the London Tunnels, the cab signalling system TVM 430 switches over to conventional UK lineside colour light signalling with the KVB intermittent ATP system. Colour light signalling is necessary in this last kilometre due to the Network Rail interfaces, the need for routing information and because short block sections are required to meet the specified operational headway/journey time (which cannot be achieved within the low speed codes available to the TVM system due to the speed profile of the layout.