Cycling: How to make it safer?

[meridian2]

Yes but that's the area we Brits associate with the most, largely because it contains your most populous cities (Amsterdam, Den Haag, Rotterdam). It may be a misnomer, but it isn't totally inaccurate.

Going back to cycles, do you think we could apply the Dutch approach to cycling?

 

[radamfi]

Going back to cycles, do you think we could apply the Dutch approach to cycling?

It is clearly possible, as I pointed out in my earlier post, the Dutch followed a similar policy to the UK of catering exclusively for the car until the 1970s. The Dutch simply decided to rebuild their roads to fit in bikes. The UK could do it as well if we had the commitment. But if you mean do I think we will adopt the Dutch approach, the answer is probably no, hence why I plan to move there.

By the way, it would be wrong to assume the Dutch are anti-car. Car ownership levels are similar to the UK and they are currently in the process of a substantial road building programme.

 

[jon0844]

But there are many places in the Netherlands where it's not nice to drive. Towns where the roads are all level so everyone has equal priority is pretty scary for a non-local. You have people and cyclists coming straight at you, and the first time I did it I was convinced I shouldn't be there and was driving on a pedestrianised street!

And thanks to loads of one way streets, where it again seems fine for everyone else to go in either direction, if you get lost then you'll be driving for ages - until you just give up and wish you'd stayed on the motorway and just driven straight through the country.

Motorists certainly drive slowly as a result of the way the roads are set up in towns, especially when there are so many narrow sections that hinder you further. It's certainly preferable to then get out your bike and cycle instead, that's for sure!

I assume people in the Netherlands only drive when they have to go long distances? It must be a horrid experience otherwise. Bikes and public transport all the way.

Maybe one day that will happen here, but I think it requires a whole change of mindset and will take a generation or three...

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought Holland was part of Lincolnshire?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But there are many places in the Netherlands where it's not nice to drive. Towns where the roads are all level so everyone has equal priority is pretty scary for a non-local. You have people and cyclists coming straight at you, and the first time I did it I was convinced I shouldn't be there and was driving on a pedestrianised street!

If you insist on driving on the left, what do you expect? HTH

 

[radamfi]

http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/repository/bestanden/CyclingintheNetherlands2009.pdf shows the modal split in the Netherlands in 2007 for different journey lengths.

For trips under 7.5 km, 34% of trips were by bike, 27% of trips were on foot, 2% of trips were by local public transport and 36% of trips were by car.

For trips over 15 km, 81% of trips were by car, 11% by train, 4% by local public transport and 2% by bike.

It can be seen therefore that, whilst bikes compete quite effectively with cars on short distances, they virtually kill of local bus travel. Local public transport is only really commonly used in the major cities. That would be a problem in the UK as the big bus companies would lobby against improved cycling conditions as buses would no longer be profitable. In London, where buses aren't deregulated, it might be different because TfL have a problem with overcrowding, so cycling might reduce the need for an excessive number of buses.

Driving in towns is probably not that different to the UK, both are rather unpleasant. Parking is probably easier to find in the Netherlands, probably because there is less pressure on spaces due to high bike use.

 

[Nick W]

The point is even if you're the best driver in the world and leave a suitable gap in front of you the drivers behind you probably won't do the same.
A point was made that a multiple pile-up of vehicles is preferable to an accident with a solitary cyclist which is plainly stupid.

So if I was driving behind you, you've just killed someone for no reason.

There are 50+ car pile-ups from which everyone walks away.

 

[jon0844]

If you insist on driving on the left, what do you expect? HTH

Wait, what? They drive on the other side?

Oh that explains it then!

 

[Johnuk123]

There are 50+ car pile-ups from which everyone walks away.

There are many 2 or 3 car pile-ups where several people die day in day out every week of the year.

You can provide any statistics you like but anybody who seriously believes that a multiple vehicle pile-up is always preferable to a single cyclist accident is ridiculous.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, anyone would think that no car ever has an accident that hurts the occupants given what has been said on here.

I wonder what happens if a cyclist shot out of a one way street the wrong way, causing a car to swerve and have a head-on with a bus/lorry the other way? Or mounts the pavement and hits a busy bus stop?

Is that the fault of the motorist for not anticipating what might happen?

 

[ExRes]

Yes, anyone would think that no car ever has an accident that hurts the occupants given what has been said on here.

I wonder what happens if a cyclist shot out of a one way street the wrong way, causing a car to swerve and have a head-on with a bus/lorry the other way? Or mounts the pavement and hits a busy bus stop?

Is that the fault of the motorist for not anticipating what might happen?

Absolutely, on here you'd be bang to rights

 

[SWTCommuter]

The DfT's latest traffic signs consultation document includes a proposal to give priority to cyclists on quiet streets where they form the majority of traffic.

'Cycle streets' 5.13
We will be taking forward the opportunity to trial the “Cycle Streets” concept within the revised TSRGD. This is a bold initiative, which is being considered by some of the Cycle Cities and London, possibly including a ban on overtaking on lightly trafficked roads where cycle flows are high. Subject to any scheme trial, this prohibition could be accompanied by an advisory speed limit of 15 mph

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310060/consultation-document.pdf

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/motorists-penalty-overtaking-cyclists-city-roads-transport-government-proposal

 

[jon0844]

Nice idea, but with a lack of an enforceable speed limit, it's not likely to work very well IMO.

Seems a bit of a half assed solution not really helping either cyclists or motorists.

But if it's only a consultation document then it may not happen anyway, or be years away (bar perhaps a trial area).

 

[radamfi]

They have bicycle streets in the Netherlands. They are usually painted red like a normal cycle path but cars are allowed because there are houses along the street that need access. These streets would not be through routes for cars so would not have much traffic. Cars are considered to be 'guests' on these streets.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is it permissible to enter/exit one from either end? Can they be used as rat runs, in law or in practice?

The village of Poyle near Heathrow (on the Bath Road, bypassed by the A4 and M4) has signs at either end forbidding motor vehicles, except buses or for access. In theory, the village is only a through route for non-motorised users/buses, and it may only be used in a car to access your house. In practice, this is unenforced, and I believe unenforcable.

 

[radamfi]

Sometimes the road will be no entry from one end, or the road will be closed off at one end with a small gap so that bikes can get through. Whilst we don't have bicycle streets in the UK yet, there are quite a few examples of closing off roads to general through traffic (especially in London) and taking advantage of these facilities is a good way of avoiding busy roads, and in some cases makes cycling almost tolerable.

 

[ExRes]

Sometimes the road will be no entry from one end, or the road will be closed off at one end with a small gap so that bikes can get through. Whilst we don't have bicycle streets in the UK yet, there are quite a few examples of closing off roads to general through traffic (especially in London) and taking advantage of these facilities is a good way of avoiding busy roads, and in some cases makes cycling almost tolerable.

The idea of closing off roads may have it's benefits, but where does the traffic go that can no longer use those roads ?

Road A is closed to motor vehicles so they all go to road B instead, this causes even more chaos on road B and endangers cyclists who have to use road B to get from home to work, and before you say it, no, those cyclists cannot use road A because it doesn't lead to and from their required points

What use then are a few closed roads ?

 

[jon0844]

There have been many roads, especially on estates, closed by the installation of gates (which can be opened by the emergency services) for many, many years.

The problem is as mentioned by ExRes in that cars have to then go somewhere else, or potentially turn around in a narrow road.

 

[radamfi]

The idea of closing off roads may have it's benefits, but where does the traffic go that can no longer use those roads ?

Road A is closed to motor vehicles so they all go to road B instead, this causes even more chaos on road B and endangers cyclists who have to use road B to get from home to work, and before you say it, no, those cyclists cannot use road A because it doesn't lead to and from their required points

What use then are a few closed roads ?

Road closures of this nature are already common, not really to improve cycling, but so that fewer households are blighted by heavy traffic. This is often accompanied by traffic calming. New housing developments are usually built like this to begin with, with most streets being dead ends and few, if any, houses built on the distributor road feeding these streets.

 

[Nick W]

There are many 2 or 3 car pile-ups where several people die day in day out every week of the year.

Yes, probably caused by drivers who drove with similar attitudes (not prepared to stop in the distance seen to be clear).

I wonder what happens if a cyclist shot out of a one way street the wrong way, causing a car to swerve and have a head-on with a bus/lorry the other way? Or mounts the pavement and hits a busy bus stop?

Is that the fault of the motorist for not anticipating what might happen?

Yes, you can slam on the brakes without checking the mirror in an emergency but you should not swerve without looking or having already looked recently. [Without working ABS, the driver might unwillingly swerve, admittedly.]

That said, I once slammed on the brakes after a cyclist pulled out in front of me, didn't brake correctly (I did both brakes not front brake only which is a bad idea because the front brake lifts the back wheel up and causes back brake braking to skid the tyre). I managed to keep control down to about 5 mph then clipped the curve.

My fault for not knowing how to brake correctly and not being in the middle of the road. (I should have ignored the cycle lane).

Road closures of this nature are already common, not really to improve cycling, but so that fewer households are blighted by heavy traffic. This is often accompanied by traffic calming. New housing developments are usually built like this to begin with, with most streets being dead ends and few, if any, houses built on the distributor road feeding these streets.

Here is a journey in Netherlands which is 1 min by bike and 10 mins by car:
http://goo.gl/maps/pHzNn

Although it'll reduce car traffic by far, it might results in the users of paths being subjected to more muggings/sexual assaults than if the roads had through traffic. So having roads shared with car traffic isn't always a bad thing. Personally I'd prefer both, traffic-free routes for rush hour, and shared roads with natural surveillance for nights.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There have been many roads, especially on estates, closed by the installation of gates (which can be opened by the emergency services) for many, many years.

Haha!

 

[radamfi]

Here is a journey in Netherlands which is 1 min by bike and 10 mins by car:
http://goo.gl/maps/pHzNn

Although it'll reduce car traffic by far, it might results in the users of paths being subjected to more muggings/sexual assaults than if the roads had through traffic. So having roads shared with car traffic isn't always a bad thing. Personally I'd prefer both, traffic-free routes for rush hour, and shared roads with natural surveillance for nights.

Your example, Houten, is world-renowned for its design which dramatically favours bike travel for local travel, although its proximity to the motorway also encourages long distance commuting. Most cycle paths in NL are adjacent to, but separated from, main roads. This addresses the social safety concerns you highlight. Where there are completely different routes for bikes, they do think about personal safety, for example where you have tunnels, care is taken so that you can see right through to the other side.

 

[jon0844]

Haha!

Are you saying they can't?

While an ambulance isn't going to stop and get out to open a gate, if there was ever an incident on a housing estate (the types that have large tower blocks and where such roads were once open and used as rat runs) then the gate could be opened to let in police, fire, ambulance etc.

As said above, new estates are designed without such access and you'll have through roads with loads of branches that should, in theory, be fairly free of traffic.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Fire generally do have keys for the gates. Ambulance and police rarely do - which sometimes makes it quite difficult - only a few people carry drop keys, and those were bought out of people's own pockets.

 

[jon0844]

I would only imagine these gates being opened for a serious incident. I bet that the lock would soon be opened by other means if required!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would only imagine these gates being opened for a serious incident. I bet that the lock would soon be opened by other means if required!

Yes, I keep meaning to ask LFB why they need the keys when they have circular saws with them!

 

[gordonthemoron]

One way to improve cycling safety would be to ban rain, snow & ice HTH

 

[radamfi]

One way to improve cycling safety would be to ban rain, snow & ice HTH

Someone in the Netherlands has recorded whether it rains or not on his commute since 2008. Roughly 10% of trips were wet. This is including any sort of rain intensity. This is for a 40 minute trip, so much longer than a typical cycle commute, and therefore more likely to be wet at some point in the trip.

http://www.hetregentbijnanooit.nl/site/

They are also good at clearing snow from the cycle paths, although this would seem to vary by local authority.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/03/winter-how-did-we-cope-how-did-you-cope.html

 

[gordonthemoron]

I just got soaked on way back from pub

 

[PermitToTravel]

One way to improve cycling safety would be to ban rain, snow & ice HTH

And tree pollen!

 

[Nick W]

Your example, Houten, is world-renowned for its design which dramatically favours bike travel for local travel, although its proximity to the motorway also encourages long distance commuting. Most cycle paths in NL are adjacent to, but separated from, main roads. This addresses the social safety concerns you highlight. Where there are completely different routes for bikes, they do think about personal safety, for example where you have tunnels, care is taken so that you can see right through to the other side.

Indeed!

I don't think I'm 100% satisfied that people will feel safe walking through the centre late at night, but apart from that, it's good.

As said above, new estates are designed without such access and you'll have through roads with loads of branches that should, in theory, be fairly free of traffic.

Which go nowhere, so are rubbish for those walking or cycling. They are rubbish for those driving, but if you're forced to go the wrong way, you might as well drive it. They're only good for not being disturbed by through traffic and accident stats (on the estate, but not on the surrounding roads blighted by such a design).

I lived in such an estate for a year, and the only way of cutting the long route cycling involved carrying a bike down steps...