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Dales railcard changes from Jan 2022

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Al_feather

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The guard on my train today told me the conditions of Dales railcard are changing from 3rd January 2022. Main points are:

* No longer valid before 0815 ( (Mon - Fri)
* No longer valid between Carlisle and Brampton
* No longer available to people in the CA8 postcode.
* The price is going to increase ( he didn't know what to)
*Possibly a photo will be on the Railcard ( he wasn't sure). This is to prevent people passing it to friends.

I also noted that it doesn't seem to offer a discount on advance fares. Initially i thought this was a glitch in the system but i tried several sites over different days and none of them offered the discount on advance fares.

Does anyone know where we can find out more information? My current card expires end of Jan so if its going to be a substantial increase in price ill buy a new one before 3rd Jan.

Also, can anyone confirm if they are no longer valid on advance fares?
 
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Starmill

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It's a bit random taking the Brampton - Carlisle section away. There's an awful lot of unsold seat km running around between Hexham and Carlisle...

The other changes to restrict the availability of the discount are probably well overdue!
 

30907

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It's a bit random taking the Brampton - Carlisle section away. There's an awful lot of unsold seat km running around between Hexham and Carlisle...
Fits with deleting the postcode area though.
I suspect there is (was) an increased amount of local travel West of Brampton.
 

johnnychips

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For us who are not familiar with this, please could you explain what the Dales railcard is, and what effect the changes will have? Genuinely interested.
 

yorksrob

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For us who are not familiar with this, please could you explain what the Dales railcard is, and what effect the changes will have? Genuinely interested.
It's a local railcard that covers the S&C and little North Western lines.

In my opinion it ought to be expanded to include the Cumbrian cost as well !
 

bspahh

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https://settle-carlisle.co.uk/tickets-times-travel/dales-railcard/about-the-dales-railcard/ explains more

About The Dales Railcard​

Save a 1/3rd on tickets: The Dales Railcard costs less than 20p a day.​

The Dales Railcard costs just £10. They can be purchased by residents of postcode areas bounding the Settle to Carlisle railway, between Skipton and Carnforth on the Leeds to Morecambe Line or in the Clitheroe/Whalley area. The Dales Railcard is valid for 12 months and provides savings of 1/3rd on the cost of tickets within the specified area.

As well as savings for the railcard holder, up to four children accompanying each Dales Railcard holder are eligible for discounts of 81% on the full adult fare. The minimum fare for a child is £1.00.

Dales Railcard holders can also take advantage of the annual winter offer when a great value flat rate ticket is available*.

Subscribe to our e-mail newsletter here and stay up to date with the latest news and offers for travel along the Settle to Carlisle railway and beyond.

Who’s eligible for a Dales Railcard?​

You can apply for a Dales Railcard if you live between:​

  • Skipton and Carlisle on the Leeds – Settle – Appleby – Carlisle line
  • Skipton and Carnforth on the Leeds – Morecambe line
  • Clitheroe / Whalley on the Ribble Valley line
And if your postcode is in one of the following areas:

  • CA 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17
  • DL 8, 11, 12
  • LA 2, 5, 6, 10
  • BD 23, 24
  • BB 7


Where can I use my Dales Railcard?​

You can use a Dales Railcard to save money on single, off-peak and cheap day return and standard open return tickets. Travel validity is between all stations on the Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe lines and between Clitheroe/Whalley and Hellifield (Sundays only).

The restrictions are that it cannot be used exclusively within the Leeds/Bradford/Skipton area or exclusively between Carnforth, Lancaster, Bare Lane and Morecambe.


Where Can I Buy a Dales Railcard?​

Purchase or renew your Dales Railcard in our online shop here.


Dales Railcards can also be purchased at Appleby, Carlisle, Settle or Skipton railway stations.


Pick up an application form from one of the railway stations listed above.


Renew Your Dales Railcard With Us Here…​

Dales Railcards can be purchased and renewed in our online shop here.

To make the renewal process as smooth as possible for you, we recommend you renew no earlier than 30 days before your current cards expiry date.


Delivery & Dispatch Times…​

Please allow 7-10 days for delivery of you Dales Railcard when ordering through our website.

The Dales Railcard offer and terms are subject to change.
 

johnnychips

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Thanks to you both, that was quick. Any comments about the proposed changes, though they are probably speculative.
 

yorksrob

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Any reduction in applicability is bad. Disappointing that this will affect the 7:48 departure from Leeds Northwards.
 

Starmill

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Any reduction in applicability is bad. Disappointing that this will affect the 7:48 departure from Leeds Northwards.
Although the 0748 is one of the services which works perfectly for a Glasgow connection, as there's an Avanti West Coast service departing 18 minutes after it arrives in Carlisle and you arrive in Glasgow at midday. The journey time is now better than if you use the 0708 LNER or 0808 CrossCountry. Perhaps this offers some increased scope to sell more tickets there.
 

lyndhurst25

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I agree that the product should be being expanded, rather than pruned back. Leisure travel is something that the railway should be encouraging and I doubt that the Dales Railcard is being “abused” by many regular commuters. Adding in Lancaster to Barrow for example to make a “Dales and South Lakes Railcard” would get my vote and I’d be prepared to pay a little more for the extra validity. Barring the 0748 from Leeds northbound S&C train from all stations south if Skipton will stop many from getting a decent day’s hiking in during the short winter days.

For current holders, I don’t see how they can reduce the validity until early 2023 at the earliest, as the terms and conditions will have to be the same as when they purchased the railcard. Any reduction in validity is going to be a bit of a kick in the teeth for the Dales Railcard holders who got very little use out of their discount during the pandemic. This year’s annual Dales Railcard winter offer has also been drastically cut back compared to previous years. It didn’t run at all last year. Despite that, I’d be inclined to renew mine before any detrimental changes are brought in, but if implemented as above that would give very little opportunity to do so.
 

yorksrob

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Although the 0748 is one of the services which works perfectly for a Glasgow connection, as there's an Avanti West Coast service departing 18 minutes after it arrives in Carlisle and you arrive in Glasgow at midday. The journey time is now better than if you use the 0708 LNER or 0808 CrossCountry. Perhaps this offers some increased scope to sell more tickets there.

That does indeed sound like an extremely good connection. Just why disadvantage Dales Railcard holders !
 

Starmill

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That does indeed sound like an extremely good connection. Just why disadvantage Dales Railcard holders !
I assume the key point is that people going to Glasgow will always be willing to pay more than a person with the railcard.
 

yorksrob

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I assume the key point is that people going to Glasgow will always be willing to pay more than a person with the railcard.

Apart from all the other travelers who have a non Dales Railcard !

At least the timetable is good in that it facilitates more through journeys.
 

30907

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Any reduction in applicability is bad. Disappointing that this will affect the 7:48 departure from Leeds Northwards.
Only if you have a second home in West Yorks though (OK or Cononley). From Skipton onwards it's fine.

Barring the 0748 from Leeds northbound S&C train from all stations south if Skipton will stop many from getting a decent day’s hiking in during the short winter days.
Again, you can't get reduced fares without the Railcard, and you can't have one if you live the Leeds side of Skipton, so the niche market of second home owners (or students etc without Railcards) must be quite niche.
 
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lyndhurst25

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Not just second home owners. Don’t forget that Dales railcards are also available to members of Friends of the Settle Carlisle Line, regardless of where they live. That’s how I get mine. It’s currently £12.50 for the railcard (residents pay £10) and individual FoSCL membership costs £10 per year.
 

yorksrob

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Not just second home owners. Don’t forget that Dales railcards are also available to members of Friends of the Settle Carlisle Line, regardless of where they live. That’s how I get mine. It’s currently £12.50 for the railcard (residents pay £10) and individual FoSCL membership costs £10 per year.

Yes, they'd better not try getting rid of that or I'll be writing to my MP and the mayor.
 

janb

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The guard on my train today told me the conditions of Dales railcard are changing from 3rd January 2022. Main points are:

* No longer valid before 0815 ( (Mon - Fri)
* No longer valid between Carlisle and Brampton
* No longer available to people in the CA8 postcode.
* The price is going to increase ( he didn't know what to)
*Possibly a photo will be on the Railcard ( he wasn't sure). This is to prevent people passing it to friends.

I also noted that it doesn't seem to offer a discount on advance fares. Initially i thought this was a glitch in the system but i tried several sites over different days and none of them offered the discount on advance fares.

Does anyone know where we can find out more information? My current card expires end of Jan so if its going to be a substantial increase in price ill buy a new one before 3rd Jan.

Also, can anyone confirm if they are no longer valid on advance fares?

The not before 0815 is correct (doesn't apply to winter offer except for the 2 barred trains (0549 Carlisle, 0648 Lancaster)), the no longer between Carlisle and Brampton is correct.

CA8 is still listed as an applicable postcode on the brief I have seen, price still listed as £10, no mention of a photo. However I note this contrasts with the information given to Tyne Valley CRP TVCRP - Dales Railcard: Changes to the conditions/validity

Only offers discounts on walk up fares.
 

30907

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Not just second home owners. Don’t forget that Dales railcards are also available to members of Friends of the Settle Carlisle Line, regardless of where they live. That’s how I get mine. It’s currently £12.50 for the railcard (residents pay £10) and individual FoSCL membership costs £10 per year.
That's something I wasn't aware of - it is presumably advertised only via FoCSL, as it isn't in the linked document upthread.
 

lyndhurst25

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Looks like Northern have tried to introduce the changes, somewhat shodilly. Checking a TVM yesterday, there were no Dales Railcard discounts available on tickets to Brampton and Wetherall. Northern's website is no longer offering Dales Railcard discount for journeys commencing before 0815 on weekdays.

The National Rail Enquires website makes no mention of the changes however.

Neither does the linked page about the railcard on Northern's website.

FoSCL are kicking up a fuss.
CRAVEN HERALD, 31st December 2021.





FRIENDS of the Settle Carlisle Line say changes to the Dales Railcard from the start of the new year means journeys to work, school or colleges have been effectively removed from the discount scheme and will mean a 50 per cent in rail fares for some passengers.






From Sunday, the Dales Railcard, which costs £10 per year and saves a third on the cost of tickets, can only be used after 8.15am.


Rail operator, Northern, says the card is 'primarily designed for use by leisure-based customers' on the Settle Carlisle Line and invites commuters and others to look instead at its flexi and educational season tickets which also offer reduced fares.





But Friends of the Settle Carlisle Line (FoSCL) say some people are facing a 50 per cent increase in rail fares, plus the further 3.8 per cent inflationary increase due on most rail tickets in March, and that Northern should be instead concentrating on winning customers back.


Committee member John Carey said: "We have raised this issue in a recent meeting with Northern Trains, however there is no indication they will reverse the decision which they say is to bring the scheme into line with other similar rail cards.





"It does seem harsh when passengers have limited opportunities to get to get to work or education, the railway line representing the only means of public transport in most cases."


He added: "Without doubt, passenger numbers have reduced over the years due to various factors including the inadequate timetable, the Eden Brows landslip, industrial action in 2018/19 and the more recent temporary Covid timetable where the commuter services were replaced by a bus from Kirkby Stephen to Carlisle.


"Indeed it would be preferable to try and win this market back."


One rail user, who travels from Hellifield to Leeds for work, said she faced a 52 per cent increase in fares.


"This will impact lots of local people who commute via rail. Being part time I can't benefit from season ticket schemes. The Dales Railcard was intended to benefit local people living in the Dales but this change has been made under the idea its a "leisure" scheme," she said.





FoSCL says while there are alternative season tickets which may suit some users, they will come at an increased cost for all but regular daily journeys.


A spokesperson said: " The Dales Railcard, now in existence for 16 years, remains a valuable concession to local residents at a modest £10 a year particularly as it is usually accompanied by an attractive winter offer, shortly due to run from January until the end of March 2022. Meanwhile, Northern have said that they need to implement the changes as see the discount card as being abstractive from their full price and season ticket fares for work journeys."


A spokesperson for Northern said:“We have a range of ticket products available to support our leisure, commuter and education based customers.


“The Dales Railcard has been amended to only be valid for post 8.15am departures as it is primarily designed for leisure based customers on the Settle and Carlisle route.


“However we would encourage commuters and education users to review our flexi and educational season tickets which also offer reduced fares.


“In making this change we have consulted with various groups and stakeholders including the Friends of Settle and Carlisle Railway.”








1 comment





Oh Please.


31st December 2021 12:08 pm


Ah yes. The most abused railcard in the system. No photo needed, pass it around amongst your friends. Then there are those who buy tickets from Gargrave at a discount when they only ever have the intention of commuting south from Skipton. I doubt some have ever stepped foot on Gargrave station.


The decision by Northernrail might seem harsh, but this railcard was only even designed for leisure travel, The restrictions were in place some years ago, they were lifted only for the abuse to begin again.


Last Updated: 2nd January 11:44 am



How do Northern stand legally, changing the Terms & Conditions for people who purchased the railcard before the changes were hastily announced. Surely they have to honour the discounts promised at the time of purchase for the duration of the railcard?
 

Watershed

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Looks like Northern have tried to introduce the changes, somewhat shodilly. Checking a TVM yesterday, there were no Dales Railcard discounts available on tickets to Brampton and Wetherall. Northern's website is no longer offering Dales Railcard discount for journeys commencing before 0815 on weekdays.

The National Rail Enquires website makes no mention of the changes however.

Neither does the linked page about the railcard on Northern's website.

FoSCL are kicking up a fuss.



How do Northern stand legally, changing the Terms & Conditions for people who purchased the railcard before the changes were hastily announced. Surely they have to honour the discounts promised at the time of purchase for the duration of the railcard?
The terms and conditions on the FoSCL website don't give Northern/FoSCL the right to vary the terms or validity of the card during its term. Even if they did, it would be highly questionable whether a major variation such as this would be lawful.

Northern would be at liberty to change the terms for new Railcards but they are in breach of contract if they vary the terms of an existing Railcard.

Any affectedRailcard holders should keep records of any additional costs they've incurred and contact Northern to obtain reimbursement thereof.
 

AY1975

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CA8 is still listed as an applicable postcode on the brief I have seen, price still listed as £10, no mention of a photo. However I note this contrasts with the information given to Tyne Valley CRP TVCRP - Dales Railcard: Changes to the conditions/validity
The Dales Railcard page on the Settle-Carlisle Railway Development Company site also still lists CA8 as an eligible postcode, although it no longer mentions Carlisle-Brampton as a valid route. It also still gives the price as £10 and doesn't mention a photo being required: https://settle-carlisle.co.uk/tickets-times-travel/dales-railcard/about-the-dales-railcard/

I presume the £12.50 price is for FoSCL members who don't live in the qualifying postcode areas.
The terms and conditions on the FoSCL website don't give Northern/FoSCL the right to vary the terms or validity of the card during its term. Even if they did, it would be highly questionable whether a major variation such as this would be lawful.

Northern would be at liberty to change the terms for new Railcards but they are in breach of contract if they vary the terms of an existing Railcard.

Any affectedRailcard holders should keep records of any additional costs they've incurred and contact Northern to obtain reimbursement thereof.
The Tyne Valley CRP page linked above says that as a goodwill gesture Northern will consider providing a pro-rata refund on any Dales Railcards bought since 1st September 2021 that are no longer of any use to the holder as a result of the changes, implying that they will also apply to railcards bought before 3rd January when they took effect.

As I recall in the past, though, both under British Rail and since privatisation, whenever any changes have been made to the terms and conditions of any railcards, they have only applied to cards issued on or after the date when the changes took effect, and if you still had a card issued before that date, you were still subject to the old terms and conditions until the expiry date of your current railcard.
 
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Watershed

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The Tyne Valley CRP page linked above says that as a goodwill gesture Northern will consider providing a pro-rata refund on any Dales Railcards bought since 1st September 2021 that are no longer of any use to the holder as a result of the changes, implying that they will also apply to railcards bought before 3rd January when they took effect.

As I recall in the past, though, both under British Rail and since privatisation, whenever any changes have been made to the terms and conditions of any railcards, they have only applied to cards issued on or after the date when the changes took effect, and if you still had a card issued before that date, you were still subject to the old terms and conditions until the expiry date of your current railcard.
Very poor practice by Northern - as you say, applying the inferior terms to newly purchased Railcards would be the correct way to do things, both from a customer service and contract/consumer law perspective.

Offering a pro-rata refund is probably enough to shut most people up, but if you still lose out as a result (e.g. having to more pay for undiscounted tickets) you would have a claim against Northern. Not that many people would contemplate pursuing such a claim.
 

yorksrob

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It will be interesting to see in what other obscure ways the great Treasury price gouge will manifest itself.
 

yorksrob

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Well, I've just discovered some of the practical implications of this change.

I used to be able to use the Dales Railcard to go to a football match in Lancaster on a Tuesday evening, overnight then get back to Leeds for work the next day. A classic leisure journey.

This was £21.50 for an anytime short return. Reasonably priced I would say. Now this is now no longer valid to get back to Leeds on the morning train, consequence, I won't now be attending Tuesday matches.

Well done Northern management. If your aim is to progressively destroy leisure travel, your doing a fine job. Doing Beechings job for him.

I truly have nothing good to say about the current iteration of Northern. Their refurbishment programme has been a shambles. They have absolutely no marketing flair - what entrepreneurial innovations have their brought to the service since the days of Abellio/Serco ? None. All they do is take them away. Half the time they seem to prefer not running trains - the missing services on the S&C, long after lockdown in 2020.

The people running this farce should be ashamed of themselves.

I wonder if they'll dare show their face at a meet the manager event again.
 

yorkie

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The aim is indeed partly to deter travel; you are right on that.

But there is also no doubt an assumption that the additional amounts paid by those who are not deterred will be greater than the lost revenue; an arrogant assumption given the discretionary nature of many journeys.

They should be ashamed but I can assure you, they won't be; I strongly suspect the sort of people who make these changes are affluent car drivers who don't particularly use public transport much.
 

yorksrob

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The aim is indeed partly to deter travel; you are right on that.

There is also no doubt an assumption that the sun of the total paid by those who are not deterred will be greater than the lost revenue; an arrogant assumption given the discretionary nature of many journeys.

They should be ashamed but I can assure you, they won't be; I strongly suspect the sort of people who make these changes are affluent car drivers who don't particularly use public transport much.

Yes, it absolutely wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.
 
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